Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

25 minutes ago, Davida said:

This sounds like it came from a Catholic story book?

Nope, I wrote all those words with the excepting of the quote. Which I did say was a quote and provided the link. 

25 minutes ago, Davida said:

even a jewish non Christian version , sorry didn't look

Nope. They are Evangelicals. 

25 minutes ago, Davida said:

Judas tell me why would the Bible say his "cousins" came to speak Jesus with HIS mother?  I will tell you because they did not, it was Jesus Mom,  and she brought her sons to get her other son-- Jesus

You lost me here, I don't know what scripture you're talking about?

25 minutes ago, Davida said:

I always remember the devil first spoke in the garden of Eden -- "hath GOD not said?"

Aren't these the words of Luther?

 

ill give you the benefit of the doubt. Can you so me sola scriptura being taught in the 200's, 300's 400's etc etc. Because you can't show me sola scriptura in the bible. You go on about Gods word yet you cling to a man made tradition that goes directly against scripture. Paul says plain as day to hold to the traditions he taught, written AND ORAL. That's scripture. 

See I can show you using scripture

RSV

2 Thessalonians 2:15

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 

KJV

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Interestingly enough the only place the bible does say faith alone, it's preceded by "you are NOT saved by". 

[woundeddog]

2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Catholics are bound to the teachings of the Church. And they believe that Jesus founded that Church (Matt 16:18) and they believe that Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to protect his Church (John 15:15-18). So when the Church that Jesus founded and the Holy Spirit is protecting says something, you listen. And because the Holy Spirit protects Its Church it will not teach error. This is the the same as being wrong. It will not teach dogmatic error. Catholics are bound to the dogmas of the Catholic Church only.

Protestants are not bound by this and we see the fruits that it has produced. They claim the bible is their authority. But that's not true, each individual is their own authority. They pick and choose what scripture means and what it is saying. We have prove by the incredible division amongst Protestants. How do you get 30,000 different churches claiming they have the truth when they all use the same bible.

The rock the church is built on Is Christ himself- Peter was used as an early teacher and leader-- but its not built on him- I wont go into the small stone big rock in the Greek cause I know you will cite that they spoke Aramaic not Greek-- but the recorded version is Greek---- so the "early Church Fathers"- that tradition of the RCC so heavily calls on knew it was Jesus not Peter the church was built one==== and Yes Jesus did found the Church-- which is made up of all born again believers--- Constantine  founded the Roman Church in 300 or something AD when he made it the official religion of the Roman Empire because he saw a "SIGN of the Cross " in the sky with the words "IN THIS SIGN YOU WILL CONQUER"--- which really goes against any groups understanding of coming to Trust Christ as Savior because he died for sin~~

 

as far as soooo many versions of Protestant churches---you are right- but its not belonging to any church that saves a person from sin and Guarantees heaven- its faith in Christ-- I am not an apologist for the protestant movement- there are just as many protestants going to hell as there are Catholics--- it is the remnant Church that the Holy Spirit protects-- not any religious/political organization the masquerades as  a church

[woundeddog]

2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

 Mary was cleansed of all sin at the moment of conception and filled fully with Gods grace

Please show a Biblical reference for this--- no tradition now-- just Biblical proof

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

28 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

Constantine  founded the Roman Church in 300 or something AD when he made it the official religion of the Roman Empire because he saw a "SIGN of the Cross "

Sigh, actually he DID NOT found the Roman Church. He ended Christian prosecution. There's a huge difference.

Can you cite where you get your information?

32 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

as far as soooo many versions of Protestant churches---you are right- but its not belonging to any church that saves a person from sin and Guarantees heaven- its faith in Christ-- I am not an apologist for the protestant movement- there are just as many protestants going to hell as there are Catholics--- it is the remnant Church that the Holy Spirit protects-- not any religious/political organization the masquerades as  a church

There's a couple things going on here. 

1. So if "but its not belonging to any church that saves a person from sin and Guarantees heaven- its faith in Christ" is true than can one be saved if they go to a Church that teaches gay marriage is okay and they support this?? If all it takes is faith in Christ. Doesn't matter what the Church teaches than.... Right?!? Or does it matter what the Church teaches.

2  You said "it is the remnant Church that the Holy Spirit protects"

so I'll use your words as my question

35 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

Please show a Biblical reference for this--- no tradition now-- just Biblical proof

Cheers

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

37 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

Please show a Biblical reference for this--- no tradition now-- just Biblical proof

Sure as soon as you show me biblical proof that everything has to been shown from the bible. 

You see you don't get to use your man made tradition to try and deny Sacred Tradition. 

So you prove to me using your own conditions for sola scriptura and I'll be more than happy to answer you. 

Cheers

[Willa]

Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, Deu 18:11  or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

 Col 2:8  Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry,

1Ti 4:6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. 1Ti 4:7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness.   

Your traditions are like the game of gossip or a fish tale.  It gets blown out of proportion and is changed as it is passed on.  

It is a sin to try to convince any of us to violate our consciences and bow down before statues and pray to Mary who died, or to any other dead saint or angel.  It is also a sin to try to communicate with our dead relatives or pray to them.  These things are an abomination to God.

Protestants try to return to the faith of the apostles before they started venerating Mary and making up all the fables about her.  As I said before, we are a lot closer to the faith of the first century church than the Catholic church is.  And unless she discards the traditions of men and goes back to the faith of the 66 books of the Bible, we will have nothing to do with the Catholic church.  

We ara able to go before the Father's throne ourselves through the blood of Christ, so we have no need for a dead person to be a mediator.  Jesus is the only mediator, and He Himself lives to make intercession for us.  So if we can go straight to God  and bypass the church the saints and the pope; they are just useless trappings.  We have no need for masses and don't even believe in praying for the dead.  They made their decision whether to receive Christ and God's word, or to reject them.  Once to die and after that the judgement.  Perhaps it is the Catholic church that needs to go to "purgatory" till she repents.  lol

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Davida said:

This sounds like it came from a Catholic story book?  or even a jewish non Christian version , sorry didn't look , I've seen so many of these links that tell falsehood.  All the Roman Catholic Church can do is create their own "SPIN"  which is a complete invention to justify the Pope's false religion.  Mary , JESUS mother, had normal human sex with her husband Joseph and got pregnant. Judas tell me why would the Bible say his "cousins" came to speak Jesus with HIS mother?  I will tell you because they did not, it was Jesus Mom,  and she brought her sons to get her other son-- Jesus.The problem that I observe over and over  is the catholic church followers hold their loyalty to the RCC not to Jesus Christ as the Word -because when something is opposite to what is what either JESUS CHRIST spoke or what is written in the Word of God that should be the end it --THE WORD of GOD should always win. It is only religious cults that stray and  vary from the Bible Scripture and write their own versions of their so claimed  "holy material"
to entrap the minds, hearts and souls of their followers and lead people away from GOD.   I always remember the devil first spoke in the garden of Eden -- "hath GOD not said?" it is always the devil who proposes the doubt and questioning what is written in the Holy Scripture and trying to write his own satanic counterfeit version. And you need the Holy Spirit within for guidance to read & understand the Bible correctly, when that is missing it is obvious.

 

Davida,

You and I are both x-Catholics so we know what it is like to caught in that web being woven in that body. By gods grace, we were delivered. Nothing is impossible....  But I'm going to use you, if you don't mind, to vent a little because my weekend conversation with my brother is still gnawing at me. 

I'm kind of glad our two Catholic friends have decided to ignore me in this discussion because I really don't want to sing this song again, after having spent hours with my brother over the weekend. (They must be reading the same book because I'm reading the same arguments from them as I heard from my brother.)  Anyhow, I think it was to personal for me, thinking that my brother doesn't want to escape the trap he is in, and there wasn't anything I could say to convince him of his error. 

So, the conclusion i drew from all that was this - this issue is much bigger than just some bad doctrine my brother adheres to,  but instead is demonic (I don't believe all bad doctrine is demonic inspired, but I do believe the Queen of Heaven teaching is.) My brother would not give an inch and he was not going to concede any issue we discussed. For him to hang on so strongly like that, holding on to his Catholic books, and refuse to test those books with the plain word of God from the Holy Bible  made me believe his demon is very strong, because I know Gods word is pretty strong too. 

I recall Jesus once telling his disciples, "this one can only come out through prayer and fasting....." well, that just may be the case here with people like my brother. I pray for the  word that he has been exposed to will not come back void and someday in some distant future, my brothers' eyes will be opened, just as I hope for any RCC who is steeped in this false teaching, will be. 

I still remember his words when I asked him why can't he deny the RCC version of Mary and just accept her as one of us?  He said, "Mary is just as important to our faith as is Jesus. God listens to her because of that role as Mother!  That is why we pray to MARY for Gods grace to be given."  (My brother just can't understand this makes her Co-Mediatrix, usurping the role of Jesus!)  This thread has me even more concerned because for the first time, I think there may be a chance my brother doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him convicting him of his sin of idolatry. I hate that thought. I buried my parents pretty sure they didn't want the blood of Jesus washing away their sins, but the thought of my brother.....my very close brother.....also possibly hindering his entrance into the kingdom all because he won't give up this .........idol.....makes me shiver.  (I still hope this is not the case, and that God may just look upon this Mary stuff as just bad doctrine passed down by bad teachers and not serious enough to condemn.) 

Time to go and help the Post Millenial brothers see the error of their way now.  Lol  thanks for listening. Please share any thoughts you have from this post. 

spock out

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Spock

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

23 minutes ago, Davida said:

Judas would you attend a protestant Bible believing church for 1 month? going to all that it has to offer in Bible study and fellowship and talking with the Pastor,  to see what is the difference to what you have been taught?

Would you do the same with a Catholic Church?

And to answer your question. I have to both. My fiancée use to be psrotestant and I met weekly with her Pastor. 

Some how I doubt you would do the same thing. 

[Spock]

46 minutes ago, Willa said:

Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, Deu 18:11  or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

 Col 2:8  Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry,

1Ti 4:6 If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. 1Ti 4:7 But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness.   

Your traditions are like the game of gossip or a fish tale.  It gets blown out of proportion and is changed as it is passed on.  

It is a sin to try to convince any of us to violate our consciences and bow down before statues and pray to Mary who died, or to any other dead saint or angel.  It is also a sin to try to communicate with our dead relatives or pray to them.  These things are an abomination to God.

Protestants try to return to the faith of the apostles before they started venerating Mary and making up all the fables about her.  As I said before, we are a lot closer to the faith of the first century church than the Catholic church is.  And unless she discards the traditions of men and goes back to the faith of the 66 books of the Bible, we will have nothing to do with the Catholic church.  

We ara able to go before the Father's throne ourselves through the blood of Christ, so we have no need for a dead person to be a mediator.  Jesus is the only mediator, and He Himself lives to make intercession for us.  So if we can go straight to God  and bypass the church the saints and the pope; they are just useless trappings.  We have no need for masses and don't even believe in praying for the dead.  They made their decision whether to receive Christ and God's word, or to reject them.  Once to die and after that the judgement.  Perhaps it is the Catholic church that needs to go to "purgatory" till she repents.  lol

I enjoyed reading these words.

Yes, the RCC did not begin until after the Constantine's Council of Nicaea met in 323 AD, so clearly they were not the first church. We had 300 years before them of church.  So no one can argue that they were the first church, therefore the one God is protecting, because they weren't. 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

3 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I've never read the NT in the Greek so I wouldn't know. But it doesn't matter because you are forcing modern day North American culture and  linguistics onto a 1st century middle eastern culture. 

There is no word in Hebrew or Aramaic for cousin....... I know I know! Don't get a head of me. 

Jesus spoke Aramaic. So did his family and likely all those around him growing up. So for 33 years he and his family referred to cousins as brothers and sisters. And therefore they were recorded as such. 

Now to come back to the Greek. Why didn't they refer them as cousins in the Greek than, since the NT was written in the Greek and there's a word for cousin. Simply because that's not how they were referred to as. We see in the OT as Lot is called Abrahams brother in the KJV

Gen 14:14

And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

We know that he was his nephew yet you see the term brother still being used. Other translations use relative or kinsman. But not the KJV. Why, well because even though Lot was properly a nephew, Lot was not called nephew because there was no word for that. The brothers and sisters of Jesus are no different. They weren't called cousins in Greek because in everyday communication they were not called that because Hebrew and Aramaic don't have a word for cousin. 

This is regarding Lot but is also applicable to Jews of the time of Jesus:

When one look at the Hebrew words used for “brother” in both Genesis 14:14 and 14:16 we see it is אָח.  The Hebrew word אָח can be used in more than one sense and it does not necessarily mean brother in the sense of family members having the same mother and father.

https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2016/11/04/bible-contradiction-was-lot-abrahams-brother-or-nephew/

But again note there are passages where Mary is called the MOTHER of James, Joses, etc etc.

Yes I am aware of the belief some Catholics have that Joseph was an older man that had kids from a previous marriage and while there may be some truth to that due to the fact that Joseph seems to have died by the time Jesus began ministry and possibly well before that but that doesn't say anything really.