Mystery Babylon status rev.17

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

The first thing in regards to this, is that symbols don't change.  God doesn't tell us what a symbol means and then later change that meaning.  We know from Revelation 12 that the woman represents Israel, but it is important to keep in mind that there are two groups regarding Israel in the end times.

 

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:

 

Revelation 12 addresses the 1/3, Revelation 17 addresses the 2/3.  The woman in Revelation 17 is riding the beast, not fleeing from the beast as the woman in Revelation 12 is.  So here is evidence that supports this woman is Israel, and deals with her riding the beast as well.

In REvelation 12, the "woman" is the nation from which our Messiah came: so ISRAEL.

Revelation 17  Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

 

The first thing to address is that the woman is a harlot, this is the very thing God has spoken in regards to Israel repeatedly in prophecy.  The best example is found in the book of Hosea.  The first three chapters are a summary of Hosea's personal life, in which God instructs him to marry a harlot as a metaphor for His relationship with Israel.  Chapters 4-14 breaks things down in more detail, below is an example that points directly to this truth including the wine reference.

Agreed as to the "harlot." It has always meant Israel going after false gods, such as Ashtoreth, and Bael. How many times in the Old Testament do we read "on every high hill" and "under ever green tree." In China, and in Burma, there is a temple of some kind on every high hill. (I have not been on every one, so guessing from what I have seen).

Now, fast forward to the last half of the 70th week: it is written that "the whole world wondered after the Beast" and "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him..." There has never been deception to the extent the entire world has been deceived, but that is what is coming. From Jerusalem, the city, the Beast and false prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD.

Hosea 4:11 “Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.
12 My people ask counsel from their wooden idols,
And their staff informs them.
For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to stray,
And they have played the harlot against their God.

 

The explanation regarding the waters the harlot sits on are given later in the same chapter of Revelation.

 

Revelation 17:15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues."

It only means this harlot woman will be deceiving people around the world.

I'll come back to this later on but wanted to display it here since it appears in the first segment, and the importance of the reference is in regards to the beast and his kingdom.

 

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 

Not all of Israel is in Judea, so we see the reference to the wilderness above, and Hosea touches on the fact that even some of those who are representative of the 2/3 are not in cities.  You also see in this verse the reference to the beast being scarlet, and also it touches on what occurs in Jerusalem which we know as the 'abomination of desolation'.  We'll come back to this again.

 

Hosea 4:13 They offer sacrifices on the mountaintops,
And burn incense on the hills,
Under oaks, poplars, and terebinths,
Because their shade is good.
Therefore your daughters commit harlotry,
And your brides commit adultery.

 

Hosea touches on the fact that the Jews are spread out within the land, and also that some travel outside the land.  The point being, the group that is protected in the wilderness are separate from the 2/3 that will be cut off and die.  To be cut off and die is of course clarified by Jesus in the gospel of John regarding the vine and the branches.

 

Revelation 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

 

The woman's attire directs us back to the priestly attire that Aaron and the levites were instructed to wear in Exodus 28.  It is not a perfect match because the blue and gold are not mentioned, but the overall similarities are no coincidence given all of this information.  Right down to the precious metals, stones, and pearls.

The Beast will come IN THE PLACE of the Jewish Messiah. So will do all he can to appear as people think the Messiah would appear.

Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

In other words, the greatest "harlot" every to exist on earth. Greater than Bael, greater than DAgon, or any of the false gods Israel used to worship. And it fits, because the Beast and the false prophet, from JERUSALEM will deceive the entire planet.

This is another direct link to Exodus 28, regarding what Aaron was instructed to wear on his forehead.

 

Exodus 28:36 “You shall also make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it, like the engraving of a signet:

HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

37 And you shall put it on a blue cord, that it may be on the turban; it shall be on the front of the turban. 38 So it shall be on Aaron’s forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things which the children of Israel hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord."

 

So consider what is written on her forehead exactly.  For now I'll specifically address the final segment and how it links these things.  First, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS part, and also this segment from Hosea touches on the priestly garments.

 

Hosea 4:5 Therefore you shall stumble in the day;
The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night;
And I will destroy your mother.
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.

 

The mother reference is in regards to Jerusalem itself, which ties into the second part of what is written on her forehead, THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.  The 'abomination of desolation' takes place in Jerusalem, in the temple, where the beast will declare himself to be god.  The 3 1/2 year period we know as the great tribulation begins around this very event, and this is when wickedness will truly rule the earth.  The beast will set up shop from there, demand to be worshiped by all from there, and even erect his own idols to be worshiped from there. Very good point!

The main charges God brings against Israel have always centered around idolatry, turning to other gods, and turning to other nations for help when they should have been turning to Him.  The enemy revolted against God because he wanted to be god, and everything he has done in the interim is an attempt to copy God, which continues to the end.  The enemy forms his own unholy trinity, satan as the father, antichrist as the son, false prophet as the spirit.

Those are my conclusions regarding the woman and her identity, I will continue regarding the beast and the whole picture regarding Mystery Babylon later on.  Time for work soon, so maybe later tonight.

God bless

Good post. I added comments in black.

[iamlamad]

On 5/30/2017 at 7:55 AM, Revelation Man said:

You just have to experience it I guess, I can't explain it any better. The guys were not mocking, they thought they were drunk. You can be drunk in the Spirit, been there done that. 

 

The Falling away is a misnomer. It is the Departure of the Church. Will the world get coarser as well as the Church, of course, but we need to understand what is being spoken of in each passage. The Falling away is the Rapture And there will be no unification of Religions, Satan is going to destroy all Religions and claim to be GOD, a deity unto himself. He will kill the Harlot off. 

HALLELUJAH! Finally you have written something I can agree with!  (your point about the "apostasy" translated as "falling away.") Paul's intent is a departing or a catching away: the one restraining being "taken out of the way."

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, SisterActs2 said:

Hi Marilyn

This is what I have been taught too; I agree.  So thank you for putting it so well.

Hi SisterActs2,

That is wonderful. Thanks for the encouragement too. I think us aussies are a bit more down to earth and can see outside our backyard a bit clearer with what is happening in the world.

all the best, Marilyn.

[Revelation Man]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

HALLELUJAH! Finally you have written something I can agree with!  (your point about the "apostasy" translated as "falling away.") Paul's intent is a departing or a catching away: the one restraining being "taken out of the way."

I have a real good thread on this....Titled  Is the Falling away a false teaching. I don't mean to be short at times, but with my high-blood pressure, if I see a loggerheads coming about on something I am not going to keep debating the same things over and over. Once I hear from the Holy Spirit I am not moving. The Anti-Christ is in the World, I was shown that in a vision in 1987, so I try to spend my time informing the masses of Christ's coming return for the Church, I don't have that much time to debate the same things 4 or 5 times. I can debate it, but once it becomes monotonous I feel time is being wasted by two people who could be doing Gods work instead of butting heads. JMHO.

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 5/30/2017 at 4:14 PM, iamlamad said:

Please keep in mind, God numbered the seals, the trumpets, the vials and the woes for sequencing, just so people would not try to rearrange them. How sad, some still try.

Axiom in Revelation: Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

You probably will not believe this. I wrote it.

The Seals/Trumpets and Vials are Sequenced in order (Hallelujah) we agree. But where we might disagree, I think the other chapters in Revelation, besides the Seals/Trumpets and Vials are overlapping all over the place.

 

On 5/30/2017 at 4:58 PM, iamlamad said:

Yes. Chapter 17 introduces us to the Mystery Babylon City, and chapter 18 covers her destruction.  You see, during the 3.5 years the Beast will be reigning over the kings of the earth from Jerusalem, He will be bringing in all kinds of riches - fabulous amounts and fabulous riches - enough to make shippers rich. Jerusalem will indeed be adorned as the richest city in the world. Satan is very much into merchandising.

You see, right here is something that is very evident to me. The Entities in 17 and 18 are entirely different entities. They don't overlap, the Harlot is Judged and killed off in Rev. 17:16 and is no more. Rev. 18 is about the Government side being destroyed. 

What I want to do with you and I is try a different approach, in the other Babylon thread, (A little Later) a one-on-one sort of back and forth, but instead of long passages, I want to keep it simple and go verse by verse, or maybe two verses. Maybe at times three verses at the most is it fits, and we can go back and forth on each verse so we can cut through the dark clouds that seem to separate us. We can cover Chapter 17 and 18. We are talking past each other at times it seems.

On 5/30/2017 at 6:02 PM, warrior12 said:

So you see, why my intrigue in getting in some foundation and  understanding  of  who this woman who would make the whole world drink from her goldern cup brought to ligh

Hello brother.... I do indeed think the Harlot is All False Religion but I want to emphasize to everyone I think Babylon is False Government. Now that that is clarified, on to this point above. A little picture of this is in Daniel 5.

Daniel 5 (KJV)

5 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand.

2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.

3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them.

4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone. (Worshiping False gods)

5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. {Mene Mene Tekel or Thy Kingdom is numbered}

6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. {Judgment came}

25 And this is the writing that was written, Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.

26 This is the interpretation of the thing: Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

27 Tekel; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

28 Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 

30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Babylon fell, they drank from the Holy Cups of Gods Temple (An Abomination) and served the gods of gold, silver, brass, iron, wood and stone and God Judged them and gave them over to defeat. I wonder if anyone else sees this picture in Rev. 17 and 18? In Daniel 5 Babylon only Falls, the False Religion of course traveled on and carried on. In Rev. 17 and 18 first False Religion falls in Rev. 17:16 and then Babylon falls in Rev. chapter 18.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Seals/Trumpets and Vials are Sequenced in order (Hallelujah) we agree. But where we might disagree, I think the other chapters in Revelation, besides the Seals/Trumpets and Vials are overlapping all over the place.

 

You see, right here is something that is very evident to me. The Entities in 17 and 18 are entirely different entities. They don't overlap, the Harlot is Judged and killed off in Rev. 17:16 and is no more. Rev. 18 is about the Government side being destroyed. 

What I want to do with you and I is try a different approach, in the other Babylon thread, (A little Later) a one-on-one sort of back and forth, but instead of long passages, I want to keep it simple and go verse by verse, or maybe two verses. Maybe at times three verses at the most is it fits, and we can go back and forth on each verse so we can cut through the dark clouds that seem to separate us. We can cover Chapter 17 and 18. We are talking past each other at times it seems.

Hello brother.... I do indeed think the Harlot is All False Religion but I want to emphasize to everyone I think Babylon is False Government. Now that that is clarified, on to this point above. A little picture of this is in Daniel 5.

Daniel 5 (KJV)

5 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand.

2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.

3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them.

4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone. (Worshiping False gods)

5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. {Mene Mene Tekel or Thy Kingdom is numbered}

6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. {Judgment came}

25 And this is the writing that was written, Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.

26 This is the interpretation of the thing: Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

27 Tekel; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

28 Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 

30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Babylon fell, they drank from the Holy Cups of Gods Temple (An Abomination) and served the gods of gold, silver, brass, iron, wood and stone and God Judged them and gave them over to defeat. I wonder if anyone else sees this picture in Rev. 17 and 18? In Daniel 5 Babylon only Falls, the False Religion of course traveled on and carried on. In Rev. 17 and 18 first False Religion falls in Rev. 17:16 and then Babylon falls in Rev. chapter 18.

 

I think John (And the Holy Spirit guiding him) was extremely careful to keep things chronologically accurate. But when many things are happening at the same time, it is impossible to write them all at the same time, so some kind of sequencing must be used to write. From chapter 11 onward, there are parallel paths to the end of the week, happening concurrently. John cannot show it that way in a graph. We have to see it that way in our thinking.

For example, when the two witnesses begin to testify (just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint) the city will have already started to be trampled, because the man of sin will have already arrived with his Gentile (i think Muslim) armies. I believe they show up almost instantly after he arrives in Jerusalem.

"The Entities in 17 and 18 are entirely different entities"  Chapter 17 is more about the kingdom of the Beast, while chapter 18 is about the destruction of the city. I guess we agree in part.

"the Harlot is Judged and killed off in Rev. 17:16 and is no more. Rev. 18 is about the Government side being destroyed. "

Since the Harlot is the City of Jerusalem, I disagree. Chapter 18 is the destruction of the Harlot or Jerusalem.  Chapter 17 is the explanation of the Kingdom of the Beast. I believe the 1o horns represent the nations that will throw in with the beast at a very late hour to wipe Israel off the map: that is all the nations of the world that send armies for the battle of Jerusalem. The boy Nathan that saw all this while in heaven said that 70 nations come against Israel, and their IDF lasts only two days.

Verse 14 shows the battle of Armageddon in brief. Then verses 15-18 describe the woman, but not her destruction.

You seem to differentiate between the "harlot" and "Babylon." Yet, John wrote, " upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth." This shows us that the "her" or the woman riding the beast has a title: "Mystery Babylon." So the harlot and the woman and "babylon" are all speaking of the entity seen riding the Beast.

I see very little in this story of Belshazzar that correlates with Revelation, except that false religions came from that area of the earth in Nimrod and Semiramis. Some time in history "Babylon" began to be associated with false religion.  Yes, I do see that Babylon as the ancient city fell, and certainly Babylon "the great" will fall in our future as the very last vestige of false religion ever to come on the earth. Indeed, Jerusalem while the Beast is there will be the worst case of any false religion, fooling the entire world save a few who will be saved.

[Revelation Man]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think John (And the Holy Spirit guiding him) was extremely careful to keep things chronologically accurate. But when many things are happening at the same time, it is impossible to write them all at the same time, so some kind of sequencing must be used to write. From chapter 11 onward, there are parallel paths to the end of the week, happening concurrently. John cannot show it that way in a graph. We have to see it that way in our thinking.

For example, when the two witnesses begin to testify (just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint) the city will have already started to be trampled, because the man of sin will have already arrived with his Gentile (i think Muslim) armies. I believe they show up almost instantly after he arrives in Jerusalem.

Chapters 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven glorifying God. Rev. 6 is the Seals and Rev. 17 happens at this very time. Rev. 7 goes along with 4 and 5, its the Church in Heaven. Revelation 8 is the Seventh Seal bringing forth the Seven Trumpets which continue in "ORDER" through chapter 8 and 9. 

Chapter 10 is where John eats the book and keeps the Secrets of God. Chapter 11 is the Two-Witnesses and they show up a couple of months before the Anti-Christ comes to power, imho. The Third Woe is said to come quickly. Rev. 12 happens during Rev. 6 also, Israel Flees into the Wilderness when the Anti-Christ comes to power. Rev. 13 also happens during Rev. 6, the Anti-Christ/Beast comes to power when the Seals are broken. Rev. 14 is about the 144,000 and this chapter goes all the way to the end, because we see the cycle is thrust in, and God brings forth judgment and harvest.

Rev. 15 is the forewarning of the coming Vial Judgments. Rev. 16 is the Vial Judgments/Last Woe, this ends the reign of mankind, IT IS DONE, Babylon is defeated (Rev. 16: 19). Rev. 17 happened in Rev. 6. We move on to Rev. 18, that just ended in Rev. 16:19, it covered all of the Seals/Trumpets and Vial Judgments. Rev. 19 is the Church in heaven for the full Seven Years. The Church Marries the Lamb then comes back with Jesus. Rev. 20 is Judgment of the beheaded and the Anti-Christ and False Prophet. 

As per the Two-Witnesses, they are killed at the 2nd Woe, so unless the Third Woe or all 7 Vials last just three days it doesn't add up. The Two-Witnesses have to be on earth 1260 days. The Beast has to rule 1260 days. So of the Two-Witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the Beast then the Seven Vials can only last 3 1/2 days. Their timelines both have to add up to 1260 days. That is why I say the two witnesses show up a month or two before the Beast comes to power. And that is what Malachi 4:5-6 suggests, the two witnesses turn Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord comes. 

51 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You seem to differentiate between the "harlot" and "Babylon." Yet, John wrote, " upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth." This shows us that the "her" or the woman riding the beast has a title: "Mystery Babylon." So the harlot and the woman and "babylon" are all speaking of the entity seen riding the Beast.

 

These are Descriptions or descriptors. Its not Mystery Babylon, its MYSTERY, (COMMA) Babylon the Great, Abominations of he Earth, and Mother of Harlots. It was no longer a Mystery after verse 7 because we are told who the Harlot and who Babylon is. Babylon the Great was the CITY Tattooed on her head. (Rev. 17:18). Abominations of the Earth, Daniel 5, they were defiling Gods Holy Temples Wares. Mother of Harlots = where False Religion flourished/was born. 100's of Religions, Astrology, 100's of demi-gods. Its the CLUE to who this is. Daniel 5 is the same picture, they worshiped god made of Gold, silver, brass, iron, stone and wood. God sees worshiping False Gods as an Abomination and as Harlotry. The Old Testament was about Israel and Jerusalem. God made an example out of them, Israel and Jerusalem are UNDER JUDGMENT as we speak because she was a Harlot. YOU MISS the bigger picture. God is now and during Revelation, judging the WHOLE WORLD, not just Israel. Thus the WHOLE WORLD is being Judged.

The Harlot is on many waters, of many tongues, of many nations, of many races. This is not Jerusalem, nor can it be. You limit the judgment to Jerusalem who was an example unto us. Israel has REPENTED by this time !! God is protecting them in the Wilderness. The Harlot is all False Religions. Israel/Jerusalem was seen as a Harlot why? Because she served False gods. Now God is not just dealing with Israel, who has REPENTED, but He is dealing with the whole world, thus he must deal with all of the False Religions and the people who worship such false gods. The City is Babylon, it represents the GOLD HEAD of the Statue. It represents where all of the False Religions came forth from. 

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Quote

Chapters 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven glorifying God. Rev. 6 is the Seals and Rev. 17 happens at this very time. Rev. 7 goes along with 4 and 5, its the Church in Heaven. Revelation 8 is the Seventh Seal bringing forth the Seven Trumpets which continue in "ORDER" through chapter 8 and 9. 

Sorry, but no. John is called up to heaven, not the church, and for the purpose of learning future events. (This does NOT preclude God from showing John some past events.)

The first thing John sees (in vision form) is the throne room. He sees Father God on the throne, the 24 elders, the four beasts, and the Holy Spirit as the 7 spirits of God.
In chapter 5, John sees a book in the right hand of the father, sealed with 7 seals. He hears an angel asking “WHO IS WORTHY to break these seals and open this book?”  And John watched a search, looking for someone worthy, in heaven, then on earth, then under the earth – but this search ended in failure to find anyone and John wrote, “no man was found.”

So what is the intent of the Author here? I got stuck in John weeping much, and begin to bug God about it. The first thing He said was, “it shows timing.” (not just the weeping, but the passage.) I read over both chapters again and again looking for “timing,” and could find nothing. I kept on bugging God.

Finally after two or three weeks of intense study and bugging God, He spoke again: “it also shows the movement of time.” So I read it over many times, looking to find any movement of time. I could not find timing. I could not find any movement of time. So I kept on bugging God and praying much in the Spirit.

Finally after a few more intense weeks God had mercy on my slow mind, and asked me some questions. The first was, “why did John not immediately see Jesus at the right hand of the Father, when there are a dozen verses showing us that that is where Jesus ascended to be.”  I could not answer it. : -(((

Then He asked: “if you read ahead you will see that I was found worthy, but in this first search John watched that ended in failure, no man was found. Why was I not found in that first search?” I could not answer it. : -(((

Then He asked a third question: “in chapter 4, John saw the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, yet I said that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4? Again I could not answer His question. : -(((

I could not see timing.
I could not see the movement of time.
I could not tell why Jesus was not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father.
I could not tell why “no man was found.”
I could not answer why the Holy Spirit was still there.

I did intensive study for more weeks, trying to find the answers. It was hopeless: I could not answer any of these questions. After more weeks of praying in the Spirit and bugging God, finally one day He spoke again: “go and study chapter 12.” I did not WANT to go to chapter 12! I wanted the answers to chapters 4 and 5! (That was my slow thinking, anyway!) But I was obedient and I turned my bible to chapter 12.

When there, God spoke again and gave me a synopsis of this chapter: “Son, this was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

I counted 32 times, if memory serves me. They He continued: “I chose to show John how the Dragon tried to kill me as a child. Those first five verses were a “history lesson” for John.”

I read the first five verses and acknowledged that they were indeed about Jesus birth and how the Dragon tried to kill him. I thought about those two words, “history lesson.” I knew that John was younger that Jesus, so he would not have known about Jesus birth unless someone told him. As I was thinking, God spoke again? “You can go back to chapters 4 & 5 now.”

I turned back and within five minutes had the answer to all the questions: it was a vision of the past. John was seeing a vision of the throne room while Jesus was under the earth. Then, in chapter five, Jesus rose from the dead and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. They John, in this vision, got to see the moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.

Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father because He had left that position to come to earth and be born of a virgin. “No man was found” because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. The Holy Spirit was there because Jesus had not yet ascended. But the moment He did, seen in chapter 5, the Holy Spirit was sent down.

All this is to show us the TIMING of the first seals: the moment Jesus ascended, He got the book and began breaking the seals. Seal 1 represents the church sent out with the Gospel. Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil’s attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. Failing that, then to keep it inside that 1/4th of the earth they were limited to.
Seal five is the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait a long time for the time of judgment – they must wait for the very last martyr of the church age. Once the pretrib rapture takes place, the church age ends and it is the Day of the Lord, or judgment time.

Seal 6 is the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of Judgment.
Seal 7 begins the 70th week of Daniel. Rev. 17 will take place over 7 years into the future from seal 7.

You will notice that John breaks from his real-time narrative of the seals between seals 6 & 7. Why? It is very simple: two events MUST take place before seal 7 opens the 70th week and the beginning of the wrath of God:

1. The 144.000 Hebrew men MUST BE sealed for their protection
2. The Bride of Christ must be called up into heaven. John sees them around the throne in chapter 7.

Chapter 8 begins the trumpet judgments that will come in the first half of the week.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

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Chapter 10 is where John eats the book and keeps the Secrets of God. Chapter 11 is the Two-Witnesses and they show up a couple of months before the Anti-Christ comes to power, imho. The Third Woe is said to come quickly. Rev. 12 happens during Rev. 6 also, Israel Flees into the Wilderness when the Anti-Christ comes to power. Rev. 13 also happens during Rev. 6, the Anti-Christ/Beast comes to power when the Seals are broken. Rev. 14 is about the 144,000 and this chapter goes all the way to the end, because we see the cycle is thrust in, and God brings forth judgment and harvest.

Sorry, but no. You are rearranging John’s God given chronology, and your  theory  immediately suspect, and it will be proven wrong. Rev.12 does NOT happen during Rev. 6. That is a myth.

There is a week that will be divided into two equal halves. Daniel tells us it will be when the daily sacrifices are caused to cease. Paul tells us the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god. This event will cause the temple to be polluted and it MUST then be cleansed before any more daily sacrifices can begin again. So at the end of 1260 days, the man of sin will enter the temple, the daily sacrifices will cease, and at that moment the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven telling them the half way point has been reached.

AT this amazing point in time, the 6000 years of Adam’s lease will be up, and the lease that Satan usurped will be over. (I believe this is the Mystery mentioned in chapter 10) Suddenly Satan will have no legal recourse. The kingdoms of this world will be taken from him and given to Jesus Christ – legally. Michael has been waiting for this 7th trumpet for a long time! He will immediately go after Satan and spiritual wickedness in high places and Satan will be cast down!

At the same time, those in Judea will see the abomination and will flee into the wilderness (12:6). This “book” in the right hand of the Father, seen in chapter 5, is the lease document of planet earth, an agreement made with Adam, and/or perhaps with Satan. If no one could ever be found worthy to open the seals, the book would never be opened. If the book would never be opened, then Satan would remain the god of this world forever. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! I am convinced Satan thought no one would ever escape death and become worthy. He was sure his position as god of this world would remain forever.

Therefore, chapter 12 is right where it is suppose to be. The seals had to come first (so the book could be opened) and apparently it was written what each seal would represent, and then the first six trumpets had to be sounded to get to the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Seal 1 represents the church, sent out with the GOSPEL to make disciples of all nations. MUCH overcoming (conquering) must take place, because Satan is god over these nations. He was not going to just step aside and allow the gospel in.

Seals 2, 3, and 4 are to represent the devil’s attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. However, God limited them to only ¼  of the earth’s surface – and we can be sure that ¼ will be centered on Jerusalem, where the Gospel began. That would include all of Europe and all of Africa, and the middle east. Where have the two great wars started? Of course, Europe. (The red horse and rider.) Where did the black plague hit twice, and each time take perhaps 1/3rd of the population? Of course, Europe. (The pale horse and rider) Where have the major famines occurred over the past hundred years? Of course, Africa. (the black horse and rider).

These three ride together and have been ongoing since the gospel began. When war breaks out, missionaries usually go home. When plague breaks out, people die and the advance of the gospel is stopped.

Finally we get to seal 5, to represent the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was surely in that group. They want to know how long it will be before their murders will be judged. They have no idea! (If they were 70th week martyrs, they would know it would be at the most only 7 years, and would not have asked.) They are told they must wait until the very last martyr is killed in the manner they were killed, as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (The next martyr after the pretrib rapture that ends the church age will be a 70th week martyr.)

So in reality, the 5th seal is a hint of the time of the rapture. It will be the next event, but not shown in Revelation. Judgment will not come during the church age. It is the time of grace. But we can be sure, after the rapture has taken the church to a place of safety, judgment will come. It will not delay. We see the Day of His wrath to begin right after the rapture at seal 6.

We know  from chapters 4 & 5 that Jesus began opening these seals as soon as He ascended back into heaven. Seal 5 is the first hint of a long delay. The church has been waiting between seals 5 & 6 since the beginning. When John broke from his real-time timeline of the seals, between seal 6 & 7, it was like a curtain closing after one act. The set MUST BE rearranged to fit the next scene. Two events MUST take place! The 144,000 must be sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments, and the church must be taken to a place of safety: and John saw the church in the throne room in Rev. 7. So after these two events are accomplished, the 7th seal will be opened which will begin the 7 trumpet judgments. (The seals are NOT judgments.)

WE can know when the two witnesses show up. We know there will be 1260 days from the abomination to the 7th vial that ends the week. We know they testify for 1260 days. We know they lay dead for 3 ½ days. Since every mention of the 3½ years, whether given in days, weeks or times, will begin near the midpoint and end near the 7th vial that ends the week, we know they will begin their testimony just 3½ days before the man of sin will enter the temple, will testify for 1260 days, and be killed, just 3½ days before the week ends; will lie dead for those 3½  days, then will rise up on the last day, with all the rest of the Old Testament saints: they will rise at the 7th vial. (You will notice the worst earthquake ever at the 7th vial: remember, “the earth did quake and the graves were opened…) This great earthquake will be caused by the resurrection of the Old Testament saints: some of whom died before the flood.

It is my opinion that the man of sin will enter Jerusalem with his Gentile armies 3½ days before he will enter the temple. He MUST arrive in Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple. My guess is these will be Muslim armies. The city will then be trampled for 42 months. The two witnesses show up then because HE showed up then. Just my reasoning.

The third woe will be the 7th trumpet. It will not delay. Just as John (and God directing his writing) stopped from the main time-line of the seals between the 6th and 7th, so they stop in the time-line of the trumpet judgments between the 6th and 7th. Again, imagine a curtain closes to end an act. The set must be rearranged. The 7th trumpet ushers in great change, so the set must be prepared. We find the set being prepared in chapter 10 and 11, up to verse 13.

Then the set is ready and verse 14 tells us the 3rd woe is coming – and the 7th trumpet sounds. At this trumpet sound, Satan loses and Jesus Christ wins! The kingdoms of this world are returned to Jesus Christ – the rightful owner! Satan is cast down. One millennium ends and another begins. It is the exact midpoint of the 70th week. Soon the 42 months of the Beast’s authority will begin. The 3rd woe will be great tribulation on the earth and the vials of God’s wrath coming to shorten those days of great tribulation.

 

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Rev. 12 happens during Rev. 6

This is myth and it is trying to rearrange John’s God given chronology. The seals must all be broken before the book can be opened. The trumpet judgments are INSIDE THE BOOK so cannot come until all 7 seals are opened.

 

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Rev. 13 also happens during Rev. 6

This is myth for the same reason. It is not in any way the intent of the author to rearrange. Any attempt at rearranging will be proven wrong.

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the Anti-Christ/Beast comes to power when the Seals are broken.

WRONG! IT is not what is written. It is true that all seals will be broken when He comes to power, but all 7 trumpets must be sounded also before he will get his 42 months of authority.

Revelation 14 is still a part of the MIDPOINT INTERMISSION (the intermission to rearrange the set: the curtain will be opened for the sounding of the 7th trumpet and the worship that takes place and the prophecies of the 24 elders given, but then will close again to continue the intermission and more rearranging the set.) Before the vials come, things must be ready. The midpoint intermission will end with chapter 14. The harvests (for both the righteous and the unrighteous) seen in chapter 14 are given as symbolic prophecy in picture form: fortelling the harvest to come of those who are martyred and finally of the wicked at the battle of Armageddon. These things do not happen at the timeframe of chapter 14. Notice that in chapter 14, the warning is given about the mark. This tells us the establishing of the mark MUST COME after chapter 14. The 144,000 must be raptured to heaven. They will be the firstfruits of the Hebrews. Then the warnings given.

Finally in chapter 15 we see the martyrs begin to arrive in heaven. Their trials are ended, and they are safely brought home.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 15 is the forewarning of the coming Vial Judgments. Rev. 16 is the Vial Judgments/Last Woe, this ends the reign of mankind, IT IS DONE, Babylon is defeated (Rev. 16: 19). Rev. 17 happened in Rev. 6. We move on to Rev. 18, that just ended in Rev. 16:19, it covered all of the Seals/Trumpets and Vial Judgments. Rev. 19 is the Church in heaven for the full Seven Years. The Church Marries the Lamb then comes back with Jesus. Rev. 20 is Judgment of the beheaded and the Anti-Christ and False Prophet. 

As I see it, mankind was to rule the earth for 6000 years, then God will rule the earth for the final 7th thousand years. I think the millennial change is at the 7th trumpet. However, God has promised the Beast 42 months of authority and will surely allow it. When John write, "it is done," it is the 70th week of Daniel that has ended.

Revelation 17 does NOT happen in Rev. 6.

That is MYTH.

Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

So your theory is immediately suspect, and it will be proven wrong. you have missed the timeing of the seals. They are sealing a book that cannot be opened to reveal what is inside until all 7 seals have been broken . Then, and only then, can the book be opened. As soon as it is opened, the first page (so to speak) will be the first trumpet judgment. Understand, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all 7 seals have been opened so the book can be opened. Once the seals have been broken or opened, and the book opened, then the 70th week of Daniel will begin. Chapter 17 begins "there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials..." This means the events to be shown will come AFTER the vials have been poured out and the 70th week ended.

Then John writes, "I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters..."  So what is to follow, in chapter 17 and 18 is the judgment of the whore, meaning the city of Jerusalem where the greatest deception every foisted upon man will originate. Then God shows us the spiritual symbolism of Jerusalem and the kingdom of the Beast that she reigns over before showing us her destruction (chapter 18)

We move on to Rev. 18, that just ended in Rev. 16:19, it covered all of the Seals/Trumpets and Vial Judgments.

How is it you find such a need to rearrange? This is myth! Chapters 17 and 18 as told by John is the JUDGMENT of Jerusalem. The judgment of the Beast does not come until chapter 19. But Jerusalem will be judged before Christ comes. All the significant armies of the world will descend upon Israel to wipe her existence forever from the earth. Jerusalem will be attacked. when all hope seems lost, Jesus will return. However, to get to this point in time, the seals must first be opened so the book can be opened, to reveal the trumpet judgments. Finally the 7th trumpet gives the kingdoms of the world to Jesus Christ and then He will take back His great power and will REIGN. The vials of His wrath can only come after the Kingdoms of the world are in His possession. We cannot rearrange what John has written. First, there is no need: it is in perfect order. Second, we have no authority to rearrange.

Rev. 19 is the Church in heaven for the full Seven Years

No, Revelation shows heaven after the 7oth week has been finished. It shows that the church is in heaven. The marriage and supper had to wait until the resurrection of the Old Testament saints that will take place at the 7th vial - the last 24 hour day of the 70th week. (the church arrived in heaven before the 70th week began and John SAW them in the throne room in chapter 7.)

Rev. 20 is Judgment of the beheaded and the Anti-Christ and False Prophet.

I don't think those that are beheaded get judgment. Rather, they get to rule and reign with Christ along with the bride of Christ. Satan is locked up for 1000 year. We learn that the resurrection of the unjust will not take place until after the thousand years have expired.