God's Word vs. Traditions of Men

[Guest shiloh357]

It wasn't man at all! Or it was. "100%man and 100% God"....words must mean nothing to you! You cannot be 200% of anything.

You're right, I can't. But God can. God can do as is pleasing to Him. It is up to you demonstrate that God cannot come to the earth and be born of virgin, and be both 100% man and 100% God. That is what the Bible teaches.

God is both infinite and finite...also just as foreign to the human mind, a mind created in the image of God's. Infinite God is not. Show me that verse. You see infinite is a secular term...a term by mathematicians that makes sense with the absence of God. God being both the beginning and the end makes this a reality with the absence of infinity. Just a side thought.

You are the one not making any sense. You don't understand what you are trying to criticize, and therefore misstate what we believe, and then try to refute us based upon your misunderstanding. No one said that God is both finite and infinte. Jesus is just as infinte as the Father is. Jesus has a body, and it is the same body he had only a glorified version. He is in the same body that was resurrected from the dead.

I see that the overall redemption story makes sense and scriptures are clearer when you do not need to squeeze the non-understandable Trinity (a term absent from the Bible)into it.

1. Redemption is makes more sense and the Scriptures are clearer is Jesus is not God? Wong. If Jesus was just a man, then he did not have the power to forgive sins, and should not have recieved worship, since God does not share glory with anyone else. If Jesus was wrongfully receiving worship that belonged to only God and wrongfully to credit for forgiving sins, then he was not sinless, and redemption was not accomplished.

2. So since you don't understand the Trinity, it must not be true? Do you understand how God spoke the universe into existence? Do you understand how God keeps every star, planet and galaxy in its course, and sustains the order the universe as a whole? Does this lack of understanding keep you from believing that such things are true? Just because we don't understand something does not mean that it doesn't make sense. It does not have to make sense to YOU in order to be true.

This Thread was not meant to be a Trinitarian vs. Unitarian thread.

We are not really arguing about the Trinity. We are dealing with the deity of Jesus, which you deny.

I want to stress that I do hold true to the Bereans (regardless, of some hateful comments on this board).

No you don't.

This conversation is fruitless. I guess I am going to hell (which I also do not believe in...yes there is a firey pit that BURNS you into nothingness, even the devil burns and "IS NO MORE"...)

If you don't believe in hell and eternal punishment, then you don't believe the Bible. Again this shows how close you are to the Jehovah's Witness cult.

Not to jump to conclusions...but I assume you believe in Hell

Yeah, but then I am like Bereans, unlike you...

I foretold that you would say I was not saved because of my beliefs you also tell me I am wrong and going to burn for all eternity with the Devil bouncing around in his happyest, a flaming pool of pain...

If you deny the deity of Christ, then you deny the heart of redemption. It would be interesting to know what other parts of the Bible you discard. I guess you see fit to treat the Scriptures like a smorgasboard, just picking and choosing according to your taste. The deity of Jesus is an essential belief to being a Christian, and thus saved. There are somethings that simply non-negotiable. If you reject Jesus as God, then are not a Christian, and need to repent, believe the truth, and be saved.

I am saved, I challenge you to explain my beautiful relationship with God...my answered prayers...my prophecies fulfilled and my ability to speak in tongues (gasp...he said speak in tongues)...

I neither have to explain nor believe what you claim. A lot of sinners believe that they have beautiful relationships with God. The JWs, the Mormons, the Unitarians, and such. They are all going to be very surprised when the stand before the Lord when he says, "Depart from me, I never knew you." It is your eternal fate that it is at stake. It is up to you to decide that you will believe the Scriptures or reject them. I can point you in the right direction, but the choice is only yours.

I am declining from continuing this thread...I apologize but I just do not have the time to refute every single scripture put forth.

You don't have time to refute Scripture? Why would you want to refute the Scriptures? You believe some of the Bible and refute the rest of it? Oh well...

That is fine. All I care is that your nonsense is not spread on this board, as we believe in the deity of Christ. You can believe as you choose; no one but you has any control over that. So as long as you keep that nonesense to yourself, and don't try to subvert the faith of others with that kind of heresy, then all is fine. But if you try to post in another thread that Jesus is not God, or that hell is not real, I will be there to refute you and "flood" you with Scriptures.

[Lionroot]

Consider Abraham.  God was going to judge that city, and He moved Abraham to go in and bring out his relatives, who were God's people.  Abraham did not go into that city and try to reform it.  He simply went in and brought God's people out of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am thinking of another city that God was about to destroy, but this time God worked differently. He sent Jonah to them, and they repented, and avoided Judgement.

I hope we do not miss our "Jonah" should the LORD be so inclined to send one.

God Bless,

Robert

[nebula]

Where we do not agree is that this 2nd man was actually God in man's clothing. It wasn't man at all! Or it was.

"The Word was God. The Word became flesh. . . ."

What's the problem?

"100%man and 100% God"....words must mean nothing to you! You cannot be 200% of anything. At least use terms that make since like...50% man 50% God...or in the case of the Trinity 33.33% each. So the argument is...Jesus was a man or a Godman, Rather Jesus and the Father are both one in the same yet different (also makes utterly no sense). God is both infinite and finite...also just as foreign to the human mind, a mind created in the image of God's. Infinite God is not. Show me that verse. You see infinite is a secular term...a term by mathematicians that makes sense with the absence of God. God being both the beginning and the end makes this a reality with the absence of infinity. Just a side thought.

You do realize that 100% is a secular term as well?

Consider this:

Many marriage counselors will say that the best marriages are not the ones that are 50% - 50% (each giving and receiving half), but 100% - 100% (each giving and receiving their all).

Would you say this cannot be for this too would equal 200%?

[Guest yod]

Nebula, I believe that is 200% correct!!!

[Guest yod]

In the music business you can own %200 of a song.

There is %100 publishing and %100 writer's royalties. If you wrote a song and self-published it, then you own %200 of the song. The most succesful songs are those where a publisher is a specialist in their field and the writer is a specialist in his field. When they work together in union, there is the possibility of an infinite amount of blessing.

All royalties are paid on this scale, too.

Not sure how that applies here but it's the only other case of %200 I know of.

[Fiosh]

Acts, I'm truly worried for you.

Do you or do you not believe that Jesus is God?

[nebula]

Something else -

Acts, how do you answer Muslims who accuse you (as a Christian) of being a polytheist?

[Ovedya]

I am 100% the father of my children.

I am 100% the Records Manager in the lawfirm at which I work (There are no other Records Managers).

I am 100% the only husband to my dear wife.

Does that make me 300%? Not at all. Even though I am 100% of each of these things, I am still just one person.

Now, to my point earlier concerning how much of the divine nature we, as believers, are participants of, and how much of God we contain. Since Acts refuses to participate in any further discussion, I will go ahead and make my point concerning this.

The Scriptures affirm to us that anyone who believes into Christ will be a participant of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:4 says, "Though which He has granted us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust."

Now, the question becomes, as partakers of the divine nature, do we not have the sin nature, that is, the nature by which we commit the acts of sin, any longer? The answer is no. Although we have become partakers of the divine nature we still possess the sin nature in our flesh and in our soul. But having affirmed this through the Scriptures, do we therefore surmise that because we possess these two natures that somehow we only partake of part of God in one sense, and part of the sin nature in another? No. We still possess the sin nature in its entirety. But we also possess the entire nature of God in another sense. Let me explain:

John 14:16-17 says, "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever. Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you."

These two verses are filled with significance to the believers. They affirm to us at least three things: One, that the Son will ask the Father to send the Comforter; Two, that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, who is a Person abiding with the Father, and three, that this Comforter abided with the disciples before the Lord's death and resurrection, and is promised to dwell in them after His death and resurrection. This is affirmed by the Lord's speaking in the next two verses:

"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold me; because I live, you also shall live. (vv. 19-20)

Here the Lord is revealing His death and His resurrection to the disciples. "I am coming to you" is the promise of the Lord's resurrection. "Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer" is the Lord's speaking of His death. And finally, "Because I live, you also shall live." Is the Lord's promise to impart the divine life into the believers, which is again affirmed later in this passage.

Yet when we come to verse 19 - a verse in which the Lord is speaking in the context of His resurrection - the Lord says, "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

"In that day..." refers to the the day of the Lord's resurrection. "...you will know" refers to the inward knowledge of the divine life, which imparts to us the revelation of who God is. And finally, "...and you in Me, and I in you." refers to the believers becoming the dwelling place of God.

But there is something more striking about the last part of this verse in comparison with verse 17. In verse 17 the Lord Jesus promised that the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, will indwell the believers. But here in verse 20 the Lord promises that He will indwell the believers. There is also the implication that because the Lord is in the Father, and He is in us, that the Father also lives in us, the regenerated believers. This fact is pointed out further in the passage.

Skipping ahead a few verses, verse 23 says, "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and my Father will love him, and We will come to him to make an abode with him."

So here the Lord Jesus is confirming His word that the Father and the Son will make an abode with the regenerated believers. Not only so, however, but the Holy Spirit will also will indwell the believers.

The fulfillment of the Lord's promise in this passage came on the day of the Lord's resurrection, when He breathed into the disciples saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22)

Therefore, the Scriptures affirm to us that it is not just the Lord Jesus who indwells the believers, but the Father and the Son also. Thus, the entire Triune God comes to indwell the believers the day that they believe into Him and call upon His name (Rom. 10:12-13).

So being a partaker of the divine nature means that we possess the entirely of God's nature, not just a part of it; just as a lightbulb may possess the entirely of the energy flowing through the power lines. The same electricity that is in the power plant, that is in the power lines, is also in the lightbulb, and is expressed through the lightbulb.

But does possessing the entirety of God's divine nature make us God? Does it make us equal to God? Does it even make us minor gods? No. Although the believers possess the entire divine nature of God, we are but vessels to contain Him (Rom. 9:23; 2 Cor. 4:7). We have no part in the Godhead, and neither do we become gods as objects of worship. However, the truth in the Scriptures concerning God's eternal life in the believers is abundantly clear: We have become sons of God and brothers of Christ according to our divine birth. God has imparted His life into us, that we could become His duplication and expression on the earth, having his authority on the earth as His Body. God dwells in us individually and corporately as the Body of Christ, and we dwell in Him.

However, the life that we possess is not entirely manifested to the world. It is promised to us that on the great day of our resurrection corporately, at the Lord's return, the life that we possess will be entirely manifested in our bodies - our resurrected and glorified bodies, that is (Col. 3:4).

Having therefore affirmed these truths in the Scirptures, we cannot rightly claim that we are 50% God and 50% man. The truth of the matter is that, with regard to being sons, we are 100% God according to God's life and nature. But with regard to our natural life we are still 100% human, with the same life that causes us to commit sin. Now, it may sound a little heretical to say that we are 100% God according to God's life and nature. But when we use the term "God" here, we are not talking about having a place in the Godhead. We are only talking about God's nature. For those interested in the subject of divination or theosis I would invite you to search the subject in more depth. What I have written above merely skims the surface of the profound truth in the Bible concerning theosis.

But the overall point here is that human terminology simply fails when it comes to what the Bible calls "The mystery of godliness" (1 Tim. 3:16; 9). To say that the gospels have somehow been complicated by the doctrine of the Trinity, or that the simplicity of Christ's accomplishment has been muddled by this, is simply ridiculous. The truth of the matter is that in our human intellect it is simply folly to try and understand the vastness of God. Truly even in the greatest theological minds throughout the ages have yet failed to plumb the depths of God (Eph. 3:18). But the means by which the believers are matured individually and the church is matured corporately to be His Bride is not in our defining God, or our understanding the mystery of God, but in the apprehension, the pursuit of God Himself.

Much Grace,

~O

[Guest shiloh357]

Well said, Ovedya!!