THE MODESTY DEBATE

[missmuffet]

The modest issue in this world is like the elephant in the room. Even among the Christian community.

[JohnD]

I admit an attractive woman dressed immodestly gets my attention. Over the decades I have gone from "bloody rabbi" phase to "I don't care" phase to pragmatist. The bloody rabbis were so named because they often ran into things looking down so not to risk seeing women and lusting. When I was in that phase (living in sunny Southern California) I found myself racked with guilt begging God for forgiveness as if I were going to hell or lose my marriage or my life if he didn't. I was miserable, and I undertook making people around me miserable (I found every passage of scripture on the subject and there are quite a few in Leviticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Proverbs, Job. It's not just limited to Matthew 5 or 1 Timothy.

I figured, we can't compel the unchurched to abide by the Bible... so I focused on the churched... who we also cannot compel to abide by the Bible it turns out. 

In time I was wearied, worn down, and frankly disheartened. Then I realized the kingdom of heaven is within... meaning I had to worry only about getting my act together regardless of anyone else.

Shortly after that came the I don't care phase. 

I figured maybe I was being too hard on myself... maybe there was something I was overlooking... all the while giving into the flesh to lust. 

I never physically / actually committed adultery.

But I have lusted and committed adultery in that manner more times than I can count.

I say this with the hope that my honesty will embolden others to look at their own lives more honestly. The biggest liar of all is the one who lies to them self. And people do it all the time. I did it, tried to cover up what I was up to (especially from myself).  But 1 John 1:9 (the bottom line of Psalm 53) is to confess to God in the Greek homologeo meaning to come along side... Nathan said to King David "Thou art the man!" David said "I have sinned!" In Psalm 53 to the LORD, "Against thee thee only have I sinned." 

God wants us to admit it. To face it. And his ongoing grace cleanses us.

Some may think less of me now that I have admitted what they believe is beneath them or behind them. First of all, I don't care. Second... you have a lesson to learn and I hope it is far less painless than it is likely to be. You see that's the other thing that really gets God angry, hoity toity arrogance especially regarding to sin... being above it all... which I found to be a sure fire way to get tripped up in what I was being hoity toity about others over in my life. 

If you see me casually slide stepping to the side away from the hoity toity folks, it's only to avoid over spray from the lightning bolt... 

The pragmatic solution is...

We are fallen human beings living in a fallen world, we should be grateful for the light there is rather than curse the darkness. 

The Bible can absolutely find us all guilty of many adulteries (spiritual, sexual, lustful, philosophical, sins of commission, sins of omission). The Old Testament among many other reasons was given to establish that we are all guilty. The New Covenant is the grace out of that guilt. And we have passages like Psalm 53 and 1 John to deal with sin so that we can change our focus from trying to fulfill the Law to spreading the Gospel of Grace to every creature.

I have also personally come to terms with a big difference in noticing and lusting...

As Morning Glory said immediately after the OP in this thread, men and women are wired differently. And to fault a man for noticing a female in a short dress (for example) is to blame him for his wiring. Women tend not to be as visually wired in this regard (but there are exceptions and some men can also dress very risque as well these days).  

There's noticing...

Then there's ogling...

Then...

Now in ANY case, I confess my sins to the LORD and move on. 

[JohnD]

I have encountered women who rationalize... "I do understand the problem men have with my wearing skimpy clothing, but I should have the right to dress the way I want so it's their problem."

I agree with them. On the condition that they are speaking about living in a perfect world, or one in which they are absolute ruler.

And while I do not believe it should be a burden women should bear alone, they do contribute to the global lust conflagration. And in fact, if they did not contribute to it in the first place... most of it would not exist. Not to absolve men... but hey, what's a leg man going to lust after if he sees no bare legs showing?

I my Navy days when the crudest nudy magazines were routinely passed around, I recall a cartoonist satirist drew a cartoon of two skimpy clad females in a room full of twitterpated mean. The females had frowns on their faces. The caption read, "I hate when they look at us like that."   

It's how men are wired.

Visual where women are more wired in the emotional / feelings. ← that's why they hate men who get handsy.

I don't blame them. I'm not big on people putting their hands on me. Women especially. The hand on the shoulder, even a pat on the leg from a customer who liked my Postal shorts.

Lady don't TOUCH the merchandise!

It's creepy.

But for women its especially creepy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

My point to women, if you don't think men crossing the line with the way you are (emotionally) wired is right... how is it right for you to cross the line with the way men are (visually) wired?

Just a consideration. Not a guilt trip.

[JohnD]

The cartoon clip reminded me of a young woman one day wearing very tight very short shorts. I guess I was absentmindedly gawking because she gave me a sneer. I am 56 so I'm sure the "dirty old man" reflex is what triggered her sneer. I was not being like one of the Tex Avery wolf cartoons about it... I am very much against such behavior in men or women. And I said nothing to the woman. But I imagined a conversation with a female who took exception to my noticing her... "If you were me, would you have looked at you?"

Believe me, I understand not being crazy over older people taking a liking to me. All my life little old ladies loved to touch my hair or offered to "play in the bushes" the other day one asked me "do you want to have some fun?"

I used to be grossed out by it but I learned to just slough it off and take it as a compliment. (provided they keep their hands to themselves).

 

[Guest bonnieschamberger]

I can kind of understand that....I have always enjoyed dressing modestly ....Ive never even liked wearing a bathing suit even when it was summer but Im not a summer kinda girl and all of that started even before i became a christian...I hate being stared at...even one second too long and i definately hate being touched or even someone standing too close to me for a not good enough reason to....but I also dont have a problem with other women being who they are...to each their own....Im not a summer girl but some girls are...the girl who led me to Christ was.

[JohnD]

One lady, a Christian lady, got up in my face with her finger wagging for the way I looked at her legs. She was wearing a short dress. And it was just what I call a gentleman's glance. But she was sanctimonious about it. I asked what her problem was. A Christian man should not look at women that way. "Oh?" I asked. "Based on what?"

"Matthew 5:27" she said confidently. 

I had had just about enough of this ignorance, so I said "A Bible scholar, oh goodie."

Then I showed her that the full text (Matthew 5:27-30) was Old Covenant and that the Sermon on the Mount was in Old Testament times. She argued it was in Matthew how could it be Old Testament? The New Covenant / New Testament was not in effect until... Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:5. Matthew Mark Luke and John ended up in the New Testament but they began in the Old Testament up to the end of each. 

Matthew 5:27-30 proves this also by the eternal damnation for not plucking out eyes or cutting off hands etc. the same way the (so-called) Lord's prayer makes forgiveness by God conditional on how we forgive others. Old Covenant.

New Covenant is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Also Jesus was answering the Jewish religious leaders who took a lot of teeth out of the Law with their interpolations. "You have heard it said, but I say..." Jesus' own divine commentary putting the teeth back into the Law as it was intended (to prove the futility of trying to keep it perfectly). And nothing less than perfection would do.

Specifically, Matthew 5:27-30 was dealing with a one-sided slant against women regarding adultery. Rabbi Hillel and his school of teaching fueled much of the fire over questions about marriage which the disciples asked Jesus (it was because of the hardness of your hearts Moses permitted divorce), and the Sanhedrin tried to catch Jesus in a dilemma (whose wife is she in heaven).

Hillel taught, based on Leviticus 18:8 and Isaiah 47:1-3, that a woman who showed her uncovered hair, legs, or thighs before men who are not her husband... even if by accident... is guilty of a divorceable offense (adultery).  Jesus answered Hillel in Matthew 5:25-30. And he did not refute Hillel. Leviticus 18:8 and Isaiah 47:1-3 Hillel got right. But he left off the other side of the coin Job 31:1-13 which goes into detail about a man looking lustfully at women is adultery too (worthy of other men bowing down on his wife).

"Now, dear lady, we are in the covenant of grace where we both can confess our sins to the Lord. But I ask you to consider next time you wear something as... short you consider not causing your brother to stumble. And if you are looking to blame only men still, ask yourself WHO made it possible for us to see and sin?"

She repented.

[JohnD]

6 minutes ago, Gary Lee said:

John D said; "Some may think less of me now that I have admitted what they believe is beneath them or behind them".

 

Not even, brother. Your just one guy reminding us other guys, we all have the same struggle. Making this statement, here, from one to another.

Jas_5:16  "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much". 

 

Thank you for that, Brother!

[JohnD]

19 minutes ago, bonnieschamberger said:

I can kind of understand that....I have always enjoyed dressing modestly ....Ive never even liked wearing a bathing suit even when it was summer but Im not a summer kinda girl and all of that started even before i became a christian...I hate being stared at...even one second too long and i definately hate being touched or even someone standing too close to me for a not good enough reason to....but I also dont have a problem with other women being who they are...to each their own....Im not a summer girl but some girls are...the girl who led me to Christ was.

Bless you, Dear Sister!

[JohnD]

One more point.

Doing things God's way (as best we are able) is the best and most beneficial way for us.

Sexual indulgence leads to desensitization. This means different and / or more perversity to become aroused and "relieved."

Observe the world around us.  

[Neighbor]

It's 91 degrees F and 98% humidity. We call it Florida. The only person I know that dresses ( Suit and tie ) is pastor on Sunday only, and then only so that he does not distract the Northerners that are busy saying about most everything, "well that 's not the way we did it up North!", from the word of God and his exposition of it.

 The rest  of us some several hundred are attired modestly in light weight clothing. Myself I dress down for I am likely to have to go on a roof top and tend and errant air conditioner. It gets to an easy 140 degrees up there. No place for extreme modesty, nor for ties  and long sleeves  to tangle in equipment for that matter.

But some disapprove, well one anyway. I had a lady just yesterday tell me as I got down from a lift where we had installers working on new sanctuary lighting that I need to buy new clothes, that I represent the church and should be dressed up. I didn't tell her what I thought- that " you can put a tie  and coat on a maintenance guy, but all you  end up with is a maintenance guy wearing a tie and coat."

 I found her sincere commentary to be  rather hilarious. Seemed to me she must be  a bit of a respecter of persons.

 I found  one of the pastors who was in the church and asked him if it was appropriate for me to wear t shirt and shorts, like he was wearing. He confirmed that it was. I felt better about myself. 

Modesty,  excessive concern about it only leads to individuals eventually wanting women confined to their houses, and to maintenance guys  wearing suits and ties. Gets deeply  judgemental and silly at some point.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Neighbor