Questions for a Frank and Open Discussion about Cults & Speaking in Tongues

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Willa (& everyone)

     I understand what you are saying but I think Word Faith Ministrys(not sure if we can consider that to be  a denomination?) has given people the wrong impression with that "Name it /Claim it & Believe it/Receive it" hype we see on the edited for TV sermons where they must spend half the time(well,they think they need to) literally peddling the Scriptures for profit.....not all of them,I wouldn't say that but most of what we hear about & what many of us have experienced which certainly does not mean ALL.....I always try to remember that God searches the heats of individuals & so I really don't like to categorize by saying "them"

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Triumph in Christ
2 Corinthians 2:16To the one, we are an odor of death and demise; to the other, a fragrance that brings life. And who is qualified for such a task? 17For we are not like so many others, who peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God withsincerity, as men sent from God.

Berean Study Bible ·

Im not sure where "Prosperity Gospel " came from or who how that all came about but a Life More Abundant in Christ is Prosperity but "prosperity" does not mean "money" although God certainly Provides us in that area as well & we do Receive increase as it is needed according to His Purpose as we are Gods Stewards...Behold touched on this earlier......Abundance means many things besides finances but they are not exlcuded

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Deuteronomy 28:8

"The LORD will command the blessing upon you in your barns and in all that you put your hand to, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God gives you.

Increase/prosperity covers many areas,such as Gods Promise of Increase to Abraham...

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Genesis 15:5

And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them " And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

God Gives us Wisdom & Instruction that we prosper......& the Power(opportunities,abilties,skills,strength & stamina etc..) to attain wealth as He Promised in Duet 8:18

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Proverbs 12:11

He who tills his land will have plenty of bread, But he who pursues worthless things lacks sense.

1 Corinthians 16:2

On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

 

Ww prosper in joy,health,peace,Wisdom,Understanding & all the Fruits of the Spirit and we don't have to have a penny,we Will ALWAYS have whatever it is that we Need,Glory Jehovah Jireh!

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3 John 1:2

Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.

 

Isaiah 53:10

But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Psalm 1:3

He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers.

 

Joshua 1:8

"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prlive a Life More Abundant here & Nowosperous, and then you will have success.

Psalm 35:27

Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication; And let them say continually, "The LORD be magnified, Who delights in the prosperity of His servant."

The Good News,The Gospel of Jesus,is Good News about the Joy of Salvation & also that we can have Life More Abundant here & now......that is "prosperity" ,it is in spirit & in body,heart and mind.....So,my point is that I don't know how "Prosperity Gospel" came about or how it came to be thought of as such a negative thing,everything about being Born Again Prospers us in this life and onto Eternity......When people ask me about the "Prosperity Gospel" my answer is that there is but one Gospel ,it is about Jesus,His  Finished Work on the cross & Jesus certainly brings  prosperity!So the Bible is full of Gods Promises of Prosperity For His Own

  The Receive It /Believe it is a catchy little way of paraphrasing Gods Word,isn't it? Jesus Said that whatever we ask & believe He Will Give us......once again,whats wrong with that?

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Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:    Matt 7:7

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.               Mark 11:24

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.      1 John 3:22

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.                             Matt 21:22

When the motives of the heart are in the wrong place that is not walking in obedience to Christ and Jesus Said that IF we love Him we will obey His Commamdments...the Greatest of these are God First(as you mentioned Matt 6:33) loving Him with all our heart soul & mind & then Loving one another as we love ourselves.......in this LOVE all the Commandments are being followed as is the Law,then the heart is not only"right" but it is actually the Heart of Jesus ,the Mid of Christ........when this is what motivates us then or desires are in the right place and we are not hoping or asking for a great big luxurious hose,a fancy car & more money than we know what to do with......I don't agree that we will merely "get by"or that is not how I see it anyway,I have all that I need & then some,more than I could ever hope for,God Provides more than I need that there is always much to go around .....I have more Joy than I could imagine a person needs,so much Peace that it surpasses all Understanding,& unlimited supply of Strength that I am usually shocked by myself,a never ending supply of Blessings God  pours out of the windows in Heaven & then uses me to pass them out to others......Oh Praise Jesus,Glory Glory Glory......

   As far as "tongues" there are not 2 kinds but 3 (as someone mentioned)....the 3rd was shown by SObG ( 1 Cor 14:4)That is a Word for the church as a whole....that is what prophesying is but it is up to the one prophesying how,when,where &  if he will share it,he should be in control of his speech.....the thing he must consider is,will it edify or build up the church ?  I say there are 3 because one is praying in a unknown language (in Spirit) to God just between an individual & the Lord,the second is a foreign language that is known to another(this is for the unbeliever) & the 3rd as I mentioned in the beginning is the unknown or "Heavenly" language for the church & must be interpreted(with order)   

   I've been to many a Sunday Service where there is just mass hysteria & chaos,exactly what the Apostle Paul said "Should not be",it is what the pagans did,they claimed they were compelled to speak by a wild spirit that controlled them ,sounds like a possession to me!Holy Spirit does not take one over,He Inspires a mans speech from within His spirit but we still have self control which is also a Fruit of the Spirit...God is Gracious,He Always Has Perfect order and Convicts the hearts of men...He Does not scare the life out of them and cause confusion or unrest     The Presence of God is a Perfect & Humbling Peace,its not about theatrics....

                                                                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

   

[SavedOnebyGrace]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Willa (& everyone)

     I understand what you are saying but I think Word Faith Ministrys(not sure if we can consider that to be  a denomination?) has given people the wrong impression with that "Name it /Claim it & Believe it/Receive it" hype we see on the edited for TV sermons where they must spend half the time(well,they think they need to) literally peddling the Scriptures for profit.....not all of them,I wouldn't say that but most of what we hear about & what many of us have experienced which certainly does not mean ALL.....I always try to remember that God searches the heats of individuals & so I really don't like to categorize by saying "them"

Im not sure where "Prosperity Gospel " came from or who how that all came about but a Life More Abundant in Christ is Prosperity but "prosperity" does not mean "money" although God certainly Provides us in that area as well & we do Receive increase as it is needed according to His Purpose as we are Gods Stewards...Behold touched on this earlier......Abundance means many things besides finances but they are not exlcuded

Increase/prosperity covers many areas,such as Gods Promise of Increase to Abraham...

God Gives us Wisdom & Instruction that we prosper......& the Power(opportunities,abilties,skills,strength & stamina etc..) to attain wealth as He Promised in Duet 8:18

Ww prosper in joy,health,peace,Wisdom,Understanding & all the Fruits of the Spirit and we don't have to have a penny,we Will ALWAYS have whatever it is that we Need,Glory Jehovah Jireh!

The Good News,The Gospel of Jesus,is Good News about the Joy of Salvation & also that we can have Life More Abundant here & now......that is "prosperity" ,it is in spirit & in body,heart and mind.....So,my point is that I don't know how "Prosperity Gospel" came about or how it came to be thought of as such a negative thing,everything about being Born Again Prospers us in this life and onto Eternity......When people ask me about the "Prosperity Gospel" my answer is that there is but one Gospel ,it is about Jesus,His  Finished Work on the cross & Jesus certainly brings  prosperity!So the Bible is full of Gods Promises of Prosperity For His Own

  The Receive It /Believe it is a catchy little way of paraphrasing Gods Word,isn't it? Jesus Said that whatever we ask & believe He Will Give us......once again,whats wrong with that?

When the motives of the heart are in the wrong place that is not walking in obedience to Christ and Jesus Said that IF we love Him we will obey His Commamdments...the Greatest of these are God First(as you mentioned Matt 6:33) loving Him with all our heart soul & mind & then Loving one another as we love ourselves.......in this LOVE all the Commandments are being followed as is the Law,then the heart is not only"right" but it is actually the Heart of Jesus ,the Mid of Christ........when this is what motivates us then or desires are in the right place and we are not hoping or asking for a great big luxurious hose,a fancy car & more money than we know what to do with......I don't agree that we will merely "get by"or that is not how I see it anyway,I have all that I need & then some,more than I could ever hope for,God Provides more than I need that there is always much to go around .....I have more Joy than I could imagine a person needs,so much Peace that it surpasses all Understanding,& unlimited supply of Strength that I am usually shocked by myself,a never ending supply of Blessings God  pours out of the windows in Heaven & then uses me to pass them out to others......Oh Praise Jesus,Glory Glory Glory......

   As far as "tongues" there are not 2 kinds but 3 (as someone mentioned)....the 3rd was shown by SObG ( 1 Cor 14:4)That is a Word for the church as a whole....that is what prophesying is but it is up to the one prophesying how,when,where &  if he will share it,he should be in control of his speech.....the thing he must consider is,will it edify or build up the church ?  I say there are 3 because one is praying in a unknown language (in Spirit) to god just between an individual & the Lord,the second is a foreign language that is known to another(this is for the unbeliever) & the 3rd as I mentioned in the beginning is the unknown or "Heavenly" language for the church & must be interpreted(with order)   

   I've been to many a Sunday Service where there is just mass hysteria & chaos,exactly what the Apostle Paul said "Should not be",it is what the pagans did,they claimed they were compelled to speak by a wild spirit that controlled them ,sounds like a possession to me!Holy Spirit does not take one over,He Inspires a mans speech from within His spirit but we still have self control which is also a Fruit of the Spirit...God is Gracious,He Always Has Perfect order and Convicts the hearts of men...He Does not scare the life out of them and cause confusion or unrest     The Presence of God is a Perfect & Humbling Peace,its not about theatrics....

                                                                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

There is so much wisdom and understanding of God's word in Kwik's post, it should be required reading for all professing Christians.  I know I'm going to read it multiple times.  God bless you Kwik.

I'd like to touch on one thing she said, expand on it to see if this has happened to other Christians.  Has God ever given you a, for lack of a better term, a "word of knowledge", maybe of some future event maybe on a more personal level?  If so, has He asked you to keep silent about it until after it happens?  Has He sealed your lips permanently about it?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brother

 Actually,I've read it several times myself and I must say"Glory to God"......as I was reading the comments here I Received much that had to be written out,it pours out without effort and then there are times you must pause here & there and the words don't flow quite as effortlessly,thats when we must STOP and consider many things,as mentioned...Self Control & Patience,praying,always keeping our eyes on Jesus    Is this something "I want" to say or something the Lord Would have me to say"?.

    Now with that said I can answer your question ,"Absolutely"! There are many times I Receive a Word from God but I've not been prompted to share it....Also,there are many different experiences I would love to share,they are a Testimony to the Glory & Goodness of God and yet the time or opportunity has not yet come to share those things.I do know Gods Time is always Perfect,when the time is at hand He Will show me,I can only guess that it will be for a specific person or group of people that is will be well Received.......its like casting pearls before swine when you are following your own heart & mind and just yapping away Gods Precious Ministry Moments,that is only because the spirit of pride has gotten a foot hold.....

    So ,yes indeed,I think anyone who is Eternal Minded and focused on Jesus Will respond in kind.......Paul says "Pray without ceasing"..(1 Thess 5:16-18)    When I was a babe in Christ that Scripture verse used to baffle me but I did not Understand it simply is the constant communication in Relationship with the Most important One in our Life

I think I may be rambling a little,lol         This is a wonderful Thread Brother,thank you for initiating this Discussion-Praise Jesus!                  With love in Christ,Your Sis Kwik

[SavedOnebyGrace]

10 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Brother

 Actually,I've read it several times myself and I must say"Glory to God"......as I was reading the comments here I Received much that had to be written out,it pours out without effort and then there are times you must pause here & there and the words don't flow quite as effortlessly,thats when we must STOP and consider many things,as mentioned...Self Control & Patience,praying,always keeping our eyes on Jesus    Is this something "I want" to say or something the Lord Would have me to say"?.

    Now with that said I can answer your question ,"Absolutely"! There are many times I Receive a Word from God but I've not been prompted to share it....Also,there are many different experiences I would love to share,they are a Testimony to the Glory & Goodness of God and yet the time or opportunity has not yet come to share those things.I do know Gods Time is always Perfect,when the time is at hand He Will show me,I can only guess that it will be for a specific person or group of people that is will be well Received.......its like casting pearls before swine when you are following your own heart & mind and just yapping away Gods Precious Ministry Moments,that is only because the spirit of pride has gotten a foot hold.....

    So ,yes indeed,I think anyone who is Eternal Minded and focused on Jesus Will respond in kind.......Paul says "Pray without ceasing"..(1 Thess 5:16-18)    When I was a babe in Christ that Scripture verse used to baffle me but I did not Understand it simply is the constant communication in Relationship with the Most important One in our Life

I think I may be rambling a little,lol         This is a wonderful Thread Brother,thank you for initiating this Discussion-Praise Jesus!                  With love in Christ,Your Sis Kwik

Blessings to You My Sister in Christ Jesus.

The first time I had a word of knowledge I was shocked be it and confused.  We were gathering together at my mother-in-laws farm, my brother-in-law just arrived, and I was sitting on a couch managing three dogs.  When he walks into the living room, he said hi to me, and I said I guess congratulations are in order.  He looks at me funny and asks what do I mean?  I said aren't you and H. having another child?  He accused me of noticing H.'s body filling out but I had not seen her and I don't notice those things anyhow.  He told me nobody in the family knew and wanted to know how I knew.  Well, I didn't even know how I knew.  I figured out it was the Holy Spirit, possibly laying the groundwork for the future speaking to me.

Another time He prepared me ahead of time for the nastiest of days in my relationship with my family, and saving my wife from possibly violently attacking my brother-in-law.  The Holy Spirit prepared me for days, as I tried to gently prepare my wife.  When the nasty, vile comment was made to me in private by my brother-in-law, I was able to respond that I didn't know what he meant, and for him to have a good life.  I walked away and haven't spoken to him since.  I may have spoke to my sister once on the phone, but the conversation I had with my brother-in-law was not brought up.  That's been over ten years ago.

The other potential "word of knowledge" is for me.  I don't feel I'm released by the Holy Spirit to talk of it to anyone.  If I can keep governmental secrets safe, I am even more bound to keep what the Holy Spirit tells me safe until He releases me to speak of it.

[KiwiChristian]

Check out "Errors of Positive Confession - Dr. Walter Martin" AND "Healing Does God Always Heal? - Dr. Walter Martin" on Youtube. 

[KiwiChristian]

     27 REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD NEITHER SEEK NOR DESIRE TONGUES.

The Charismatic Movement contends that:

i)     The New Testament gift of tongues should be sought and spoken by ALL Christians today. They seek to revive all gifts, but none are given so great importance as tongues. 

ii)     The tongues gift is the true Biblical sign of the "Baptism in the Spirit." 
iii)     Those receiving tongues receive a second blessing after salvation, enabling them to live more sanctified, powerful and joyful witnessing lives. 
iv)     The tongues movement is claimed to be the "latter rain" revival foretold in Joel 
2:23.

We must test all religious movements on the basis of:
a)     Their doctrines. 2 Timothy 4:2,3 
b)     Their fruits. Matthew 7:15,16 

c)     Their spirits or powers behind a movement. “Test the spirits.” 1 John 4:1-4.. 

Note the following reasons why tongues are not needed for Christians today:

1.    Tongues were classed as one of the lowest gifts. 
    In 1 Corinthians 12:28 tongues are mentioned last in a list of 8 gifts. These are ranked in order of importance because we have "first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." 
2.     God gives the gifts "according to his own will," not according to our seeking. 
    "Gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will." Hebrews 2:4. 
    1 Corinthians 12:8-11 lists 9 gifts, the last being tongues and interpretation of tongues: 

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gift of healing by the same spirit,…. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Note: Tongues were spoken on 3 occasions in Acts (2:4; 10:46; 19:6), but on none of these occasions are the recipients seeking, waiting or expecting to speak in tongues. At Pentecost, only the Apostles (12) spoke in tongues, but all who were saved (3000) received the Holy Spirit (2:38,39).

a)     "Covet earnestly the best gifts”(12:31); tongues are not the best gifts, but one of the least gifts.14:1 
b)     Spiritual gifts could be desired (14:1) but not claimed in faith as a birthright. There is no command to seek them. 
3.    Most modern tongues are a learned behaviour. 

    People are told to blank out their mind and say whatever comes out; then go home and practice it. This is foreign to the New Testament. 
4.     Tongues speakers may be deceived. 
    Because a person speaks unintelligible sounds, it is not proof that he has the N.T. gift of tongues. Few Charismatics are prepared to examine tongues. We must “prove all things” (1 Thess. 5:21). How do you prove that tongues are genuine languages? In 1 Corinthians 14:27-29, Paul discusses wrong tongues which are not interpreted in the church, and wrong prophecy, thus teaching that others need to judge a prophecy. Tongues have been spoken by heathen religions, Mormons, etc.. 

5.    Tongues were a sign of God's wrath, displeasure and judgment on unbelieving Israel, never a sign of His blessing and approval on Christians. 
    "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe,but to them that believe not"1 Cor.14:22 

a)     Acts 10:44-47; 11:16-18. Tongues used by Cornelius' household was a sign to unbelieving Peter and unbelieving Jewish Christians, that Gentiles were to be received into the family of God. In Acts 11:15 the phrase "as on us at the beginning" means that tongues had not been spoken since Pentecost which was 10 years earlier. 

b)     "Forbid not to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:39) was always on the understanding that tongues was a valid sign to warn Jewish unbelievers, until judgment came in 70AD. You don’t warn people after judgment has come. 
c)     In meetings where there were no unbelieving Jews, all teaching, praying etc. was to be in the language of those present (1 Corinthians 14:23-28). 1 Corinthians 14:19 states that in the church, 5 words understood are better than 10,000 words in tongues that are not understood. 
d)     Israel wanted signs, but the church must live by faith. “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.” (Matthew 12:39). 
e)     The Corinthians were using tongues as a mark of spirituality, for personal gratification, and to gain attention. Paul rebukes this childish, selfish practice. 
6.     Tongues is one of several temporary gifts. 
i)     Apostles. "are built upon the foundation of the apostles 
ii)     Prophets, …and prophets." Ephesians 2:20. 
    Neither they nor the Lord appointed any successors to their office. "12 apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14). There are no Apostles or prophets alive today. 
iii)     Knowledge. This was intuitive, revealed knowledge of doctrine before the Bible was completed. A completed, perfect Bible ended this gift along with prophecy in 96AD.1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Today we must study to gain Bible knowledge. 2 Timothy 2:15. (1 Corinthians 14:21,22. 
iv)     Tongues. With the setting aside of Israel in 70 AD, tongues and other sign gifts ceased. 
v)     Interpretation of tongues - ceased in 70 AD when tongues ceased. 

iv) Gifts of healing. Paul lost this gift, as he could not heal Epaphroditus in 64AD (Phil. 2:26,27), Timothy's stomach in 65AD (1 Timothy 5:23) nor Trophimus in 66AD (2 Timothy 4:20). In Acts 5:12-16, Peter healed every one in 33 AD.

vii)     Gift of miracles -no one can work miracles today at their will as could the first century apostles. 
viii)     Discerning of spirits - no one today has this gift because discernment comes through Bible knowledge of strong meat, full age Christians who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5:14). No one today would claim infallible judgment always in every issue of life, which is what this gift demands (1 Corinthians 12:10). 

7.    Historically, tongues ceased after 63-70 AD. 
    Tongues were withdrawn when Israel deliberately rejected the apostles testimony of Christ, as seen in Acts 28:22-28 where Paul pronounces God's judgment on Israel (63AD). Judgment fell in 70AD. In all New Testament epistles written after this pronouncement in 63AD (Romans; Ephesians; Philippians; Colossians; 1 & 2 Timothy; Titus; Philemon; Hebrews; 1&2 Peter; John; 1,2 & 3 John; Jude and Revelation) there is no mention of tongues. Why? Because with the setting aside of Israel, and the 

confirming of the word of God, sign gifts were no longer necessary. These facts of the gospel and the apostles message of the Bible having been established, confirmed, and authenticated for all time, it is now an act of unbelief to seek for signs today.

Early church writers such as Polycarp, Papias, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen, Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr etc. never mentioned tongues. Why? Because they had been withdrawn. Chrysostom says: "tongues....used to occur, but now no longer take place."

8.    Modern tongues and Charismatic Movement is not another Pentecost or "latter rain" of Joel 2:23. 

    Joel's prophecy discusses Israel's restoration to their land in the Millennium. When this happens, and not before, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. What happened at Pentecost was only an illustration, a small sample of what will happen in the Millennium. At Pentecost, there were no signs in the sun, moon etc, thus indicating that Joel's prophecy is to be fulfilled in the future Millennium. Joel said nothing about tongues being a sign of renewal. This age will end in apostasy and departure from the Faith, not in Joel's revival. KEY: “Afterward” in Joel 2:28 means that the Spirit will be poured on all flesh after Christ’s second coming, and not before. 

9.     Tongues is not a sign of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. 

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body." 1 Corinthians 12:13. 
i)     All believers have the Holy Spirit Baptism. 
    "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9. 
ii)     All believers have the Holy Spirit, but few believers spoke in tongues. 

If we have received Jesus Christ as Saviour, we also have the Holy Spirit in us, because we cannot separate members of the Godhead.

10.    Tongues were never intended to edify the speaker himself or the church. 
1)    "He that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort," 
1
Corinthians 14:3.
"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." 1
Corinthians 14:31.

The edification, exhortation, learning and comfort of the local church was always the responsibility of the one who prophesied (gave instruction in an understandable language).

ii)     "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself," (1 Corinthians 14:4) does not teach that personal holiness is found in tongues speaking. On the contrary it describes the Corinthians selfishness who used tongues for personal pleasure and public display. Tongues speaking in a church does not instruct, edify, warn or strengthen believers. Holiness through tongues will always be shallow because it is based on feelings, not on Biblical edification. 
iii)     Of all the tongues spoken today, new prophesies, new revelations and visions, not one iota of truth have been added to the inspired scriptures. 
11.    Tongues were never intended for prayer, praise or worship of God. 

    "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2. 

    God does not need to be spoken to in a foreign language. This verse teaches that the Corinthians were using the gift of tongues out of place. Tongues were meant to be spoken to men, that is to JEWS. A person praying or singing in tongues simply spoke 
"mysteries" in his own spirit. He received no real benefit, the hearers were not helped, and God was not glorified. Prayer and praise must be with understanding in the common language. "What is it then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also.....Else.....how shall.....the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks?" 1 Corinthians 14:15,16.

This is not two different kinds of prayer, but two conditions of all prayer, praying in the leading of the Holy Spirit and with an understanding mind. If understanding is not present, hearers cannot say "Amen" to your prayer.

12.    Tongues is not a sign of salvation. 

    Assurance of salvation comes from faith in God’s Bible promises, not from any feelings of tongues. 
13.     Tongues is not a condition of keeping us saved. 
    Pentecostalism, as a movement, does not believe in the eternal security of the believer who trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Many Charismatics think that their future preservation depends on continuing in the Charismatic experience. Many fear of grieving the Spirit and losing the power, and hence losing salvation. Some Charismatics do believe in the security of a believer in Christ. 

14.     Tongues are not a means of attaining holiness. 

    The nine fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22,23 have no relation to tongues. The Corinthians came behind in no gift (I Corinthians 1:7), yet Paul called them carnal and babes (1 Corinthians 3:1). True spirituality is not determined by one's experience, gift or feelings, but by inner godly character (e.g. 1 Peter 3:4, "a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price", for ladies.) It is right to be happy, joyful and to praise the Lord, but valuable character is better seen in times of testing, persecution, misunderstanding and suffering. 

15.     All spiritual gifts should exalt Christ, not the Holy Spirit. 

    Many Charismatics exalt the Holy Spirit above Christ. The Holy Spirit seeks to exalt Christ (John 15:26; 16:14). Hence the mark of a Spirit filled believer is that in life and speech, he glorifies Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:3). 

    “Christ shall be magnified in my body." Philippians 1:20; 3:8. 
    All gifts are given so that we may grow to the "fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:13. Charismatics use the earthly, human title "Jesus", as did demons. No disciple ever addressed the Lord as "Jesus", but as Lord, Christ or Master, or Lord Jesus Christ. Let us give Christ His full honour as the Lord Jesus Christ. 

16.     All gifts were given to produce church unity and harmony. 
    All gifts were given that there be no schism in the body (1 Corinthians 12:25). Truth unites, error divides. The continual search for tongues, healing, prophecy, gifts etc., has split many churches, broken friendships and divided homes. The Charismatic Movement claims a new kind of unity not based on Bible doctrine, but on having the tongues experience. One can be a "spirit-filled" tongues speaker and believe almost anything. Many Christians who a few years ago opposed the heretical World Council of Churches, now cheerfully unite with Catholic Charismatic renewal, hence compromising essential Bible truths. 

17.     Tongues and all spiritual gifts were to promote order and peace. 

    "God is not the author of confusion but of peace." 1 Corinthians 14:33. "Let all things be done decently and in order." 1 Corinthians 14:40. 
    Church services should have one person speaking or praying at a time. In today's Charismatic meetings, there is much unrestrained noise, singing, clapping, shouting, tongues and dancing. 

18.    No Christian should surrender control of his mind and will. 

    Paul insisted that tongues and prophecy speakers should retain control of their mind and understanding: 
    "If there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:28. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." 1 Corinthians 14:32. Famous Charismatic leader, Oral Roberts, instructs tongues speakers as follows: 

    "We have to by-pass our mind and make it inactive for the moment. The mind slips into the background when we are praying in tongues and remains in a state of neutrality." [“Baptism With The Holy Spirit,” 1966, p. 42.] 
    New Age occult seminars similarly tell people to blank out their minds to yield control to some higher force, which in reality is to demons. 
    The New Testament never asks us to lay aside our sound mind, our self-control, our judgment or our reason, but to exercise these faculties in accordance with God's Word. Charismatics are told to overcome their inhibitions by by-passing their minds. People are brainwashed in cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and the Charismatic Movement by surrendering their minds and wills to the group or leader. The danger for a believer who submits his mind without resistance to outside influences to receive tongues, is: 

a)     He opens himself up to psychic and demonic deception and control. 
b)     He can place himself beyond the protection of the Holy Spirit, by asking for things contrary to God's will. 
19.     The last days will be characterised by deception, signs, lying wonders and more demon activity 

    Satan has always opposed believers and God's work. Satan opposes us as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). The Corinthian believers were open to Satanic deception of another Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel (11:4) as Satan’s ministers come as ministers of righteousness (11:15). 
    "There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24). 
    In Old Testament times God permitted false prophets to work miracles in order to test His people. 
    Two tests of false prophets are: 
a)     If he performs signs to turn you away from the Lord. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). 
b)     If he speaks in the name of the Lord, but the prophecy does not come to pass. (Deut.18:20-22). 
Isaiah 8:19 describes familiar spirits that "peep and mutter", like tongues.
Israel rejected the Word of God for more sensational dealings with the spirit world. Many see the Charismatic Movement as a Satanic deception permitted by God to test Christendom, and to pave the way for the Antichrist and the one world united Babylon religion of the last days.
"Even him (Antichrist) whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness....." 2 Thessalonians 2: 9,10. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22,23).

20.    Charismatics confuse Baptism in the Spirit (a once only experience at salvation -1 Cor. 12:13) with the filling of the Spirit (a continual daily experience for service obtained by confessing sin, prayer, and yielding to Christ. (Ephesians 5:18). 
21.    Doctrinal compromise. 

    Ministers who deny fundamental Bible truths such as the virgin birth, verbal inspiration, creation, etc. are often warmly welcomed and accepted if they claim a Charismatic experience. Charismatics warmly accept Roman Catholic priests and people who continue to seek salvation through the sacraments, who still pray to Mary, and still celebrate the mass. Doctrinal errors are ignored to keep Charismatic unity. 

22.     Most Charismatics are not diligent students of Scripture. 

    One can remain comfortable in his false beliefs as long as he refuses to face Biblical evidence to the contrary. One Australian Charismatic pastor could not find the book of Daniel in his Bible. He had to look up the table of contents. He thought Daniel was near Exodus. 

23.     Emphasis on Experience. 
    Personal experience is a great enemy of truth. When confronted with a mass of Biblical evidence, most Charismatics typically reply: "I know I am right. I have experienced tongues or healing myself. I have seen a prophet make correct predictions. I have seen people healed. The Bible teachings must have another explanation." 
    Tongues is mostly a learned behaviour. If you blank out your mind, anyone can say gibberish. Most healings are temporary and are achieved by hypnotherapy. What about the false predictions? These make him a false prophet. Studies show that most Charismatic healings revert back to the illness. Hypnotise a person, tell them they feel better, and they will feel better, for a time, but later they revert back to the illness. 

24.     New Revelations. 

    Charismatics continually claim to receive extra-Biblical revelations from God by tongues, prophecy, visions and dreams. Cults and Catholicism also claim revelations outside the Bible. 
25.     Damage to the local church. 

    Many Charismatics use a local church as a base for propaganda purposes to invite people to a home Bible study and prayer group governed by self-appointed spiritual leaders who instruct in tongues and try to heal people. A local church seems too confined, compared with many people from many churches coming together for a Charismatic rally. 

26.     Laxity and moral danger. 

    Some Charismatics think that they have "arrived" spiritually. They often lack motivation to press on further. The goal has been attained. Time for relaxation has come. Such carelessness explains much worldliness, sin and a rock music party atmosphere among Charismatics. Some receive "revelations" to divorce their spouse and remarry another person. Truth and reason then take a back seat. 

27.     Move back to Rome. 

    The Charismatic Movement reversed the decline of the Ecumenical Movement from 1960. It is not a threat to Rome. Both emphasise emotionalism, miracles, healing, and the lack of final Bible authority. Charismaticism is not true Protestantism because it is not solely based on the Bible. 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

The Fellowship of Christians speak in many languages, not just English.  I spoke in tongues when I was saved, but no longer do preferring my speech to be clearly understood by those I speak to.  Whether a Christian speaks in an unknown language or in King James English, I don't believe we should question their means of communication.  This is where spiritual discernment comes into play.  We should seek God's truth no matter how it is delivered to us.

I can tangibly feel the presence of the Holy Spirit that is residing there or has touched them quite recently.  The person giving the testimony that would lead me to Christ spoke softly from about 20 feet away to another person.  But his soft voice burned my ears, my feet planted to the floor, and I knew he had heard the voice of God.  I could only move once his testimony was complete.  I just don't understand how the person he was talking to had no reaction.  How can a person hear the Gospel and not be moved, in whatever language the Lord chooses?  Who are we to question?  To forbid the Holy Spirit from speaking is blasphemous.

[brakelite]

On 6/1/2017 at 6:51 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

There are no links on this post but if you check out YouTube, I'm fairly you can find video of some of their services.  I personally do not see the work of the Holy Spirit here.  Is this what the Charismatic Movement come to?  A search for higher highs like drunks and drug addicts?  Or am I just too old to understand.  Does this movement qualify as the beginnings of a cult?

It is spiritualism and occult. Deception. Counterfeit. There is a real experience of being moved by the holy Spirit, of tongues, etc., but its purpose is never for selfish pleasure or amusement. Our joy and pleasure in our Christian walk comes not from being entertained by visions and manifestations of a variety of spiritual events, but our joy is to be found in loving service to others and in leading the lost to their Savior.

Hence tongues. As far as I see, the "angelic" reference to language or tongues is not a validation that tongues is a language of angels, but Paul merely stating that if he did speak in the language of angels,but did not have love, it would have no value. That said, after 30 years of absence from a pentecostal church, I can still speak in an "unknown tongue". Thing is, it is unknown to me, it is no benefit to anyone, my own carnal heart is deceitful and susceptible to being deceived, therefore I do not speak it. And until God tells me that those words I have the ability to use (and they are words...they have syntax and rhythm...they are not the gibberish so common in charismatic settings...I have heard no-one use them anywhere else...they even come with an accent...)but I will not use them except I am in a situation where a different language is used, my own English not understood, the needs of the gospel to be taught, and the leading of the holy Spirit affirming my stepping out in faith. Meanwhile, I shall continue to speak to God in English. He understands that, and at times when I feel tongue-tied or unsure of what to ask for or who to pray for, I simply ask. And He answers every time. Again,in English.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

18 hours ago, brakelite said:

It is spiritualism and occult. Deception. Counterfeit. There is a real experience of being moved by the holy Spirit, of tongues, etc., but its purpose is never for selfish pleasure or amusement. Our joy and pleasure in our Christian walk comes not from being entertained by visions and manifestations of a variety of spiritual events, but our joy is to be found in loving service to others and in leading the lost to their Savior.

Hence tongues. As far as I see, the "angelic" reference to language or tongues is not a validation that tongues is a language of angels, but Paul merely stating that if he did speak in the language of angels,but did not have love, it would have no value. That said, after 30 years of absence from a pentecostal church, I can still speak in an "unknown tongue". Thing is, it is unknown to me, it is no benefit to anyone, my own carnal heart is deceitful and susceptible to being deceived, therefore I do not speak it. And until God tells me that those words I have the ability to use (and they are words...they have syntax and rhythm...they are not the gibberish so common in charismatic settings...I have heard no-one use them anywhere else...they even come with an accent...)but I will not use them except I am in a situation where a different language is used, my own English not understood, the needs of the gospel to be taught, and the leading of the holy Spirit affirming my stepping out in faith. Meanwhile, I shall continue to speak to God in English. He understands that, and at times when I feel tongue-tied or unsure of what to ask for or who to pray for, I simply ask. And He answers every time. Again,in English.

I cannot find any fault in what you've written.  I believe you and I are essentially in agreement.  Excellent post.

[Jaydog1976]

On 5/31/2017 at 3:46 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

How do you know there is one to interpret until after you speak?  After you speak, you can't be silent.  All tongues should be judged against the Bible.  But at the time Corinthians was written, the Bible had not been collected together and it was certainly not spread around for the people to read in their own language.  That would occur centuries later.

Tongues in the NT were languages that the people around them understood. It wasn't jibberish that seems to occur today with those that "speak in tongues". So with my understanding of what tongues are if let's say you are going to speak in Spanish and you are in a church that is all English speaking and there is no one that understands and can interpret Spanish then the one who wants to speak in Spanish needs to stay quiet or speak to the Lord by himself in that tongue.

I am trying to figure out since when does a biblical tongue become some strange language that no one understands when in Acts 2:4 tongues were actual languages that people could understand and hear. "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."

I don't dismiss that true tongues may exist but with how they are used today I have my doubts. I have been in churches where everyone was "speaking in tongues" but no one was interpreting and it sounded just like a bunch of silly noise. Sadly this is mostly the case in most churches that practice speaking in tongues. 

Since speaking or not speaking in tongues is not required for salvation or is a proof of my salvation I choose to not try and get involved with something that I quite honestly don't think exists in the way the NT apostles spoke in tongues.