Psalm 27:5

[Keras]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

David is probably who wrote it. Did HE have trouble? Certainly, but much of it was his own doing.

Also in Revelation, which is the Word of Jesus; written down by John, is Revelation 13:9-10 You have ears; so hear this! Whoever will be taken prisoner, to prison they will go, whoever is to be killed, by the sword they will be slain. This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people.

Your idea of being in heaven and avoiding all the end times problems, is unbiblical and cannot happen. God has great plans for His people, they are firstly designed to prove our faith, then involve us being proactive and living that faith.

[iamlamad]

28 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Sorry but you cant all of a sudden use David as your defence now, you guys claim psalm 27:5 is a rapture verse.....David didnt expect to be raptured out of his troubles....

The question still remains how do you fit psalm 27:5 with the following verse

how do you fit that verse with the following verse in Revelation

10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Its more like what do you make of it....in light of psalms...show it in your eschatology

No matter what kind of argument you make, Paul's rapture verses are true:

1 Thes. 4:¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It is going to happen. No amount of disbelief on earth will prevent it. Jesus is going to come, and some who are alive are going to be caught up. We are not to deny it or argue about it: we are suppose to comfort one another.

Why is this truth of a rapture suppose to be a comfort?

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is a comfort to know that if anyone believes this verse and the rapture verses, they can excape those days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. There is more: Have you ever had an appointment?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

God is NOT GOING to make any appointments for us with His wrath. My question is, WHY do people wish to set their OWN appointments when God has made a way of escape?  There is more:

 

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

Did you notice that God ties these two verses together with the address? Both are 5:9

 

Rev 3: ¹⁰ Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

It should then be a COMFORT to know we are going to be "out of here" before God's wrath comes. Instead, we have multiplied arguments against God's word. Now, let's look at the other side of this coin (so to speak):

Dan. 7:21  ²¹ I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev 13:⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

If people refuse God's escape plan, there is only one thing to look forward to: you WILL BE overcome. It will be like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin say in 1943: his or her chances of survival? Just about ZERO.

The choice then for all believers: they can believe God's escape plan, or they can stay behind and be overcome. Why is this such a hard decision for so many? Could it be pride?

Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

It is NOT a rapture verse. But the truth is, it fits. It is a general verse, not specific to the days of God's wrath on earth. But it does happen to fit. In the time of His wrath (trouble) those that want to escape His wrath on earth will be hidden in His pavilion.

Isa 26:⁹ Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

²⁰ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

²¹ For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

This is another verse that FITS: it is speaking of a time of resurrection. But at the same time, a time of indignation. And God has a plan to HIDE us. 

Now then: if you just don't WANT to be hidden in His pavilion, and wish to remain here on earth, there is little God can do. He WILL NOT override your will. You can count on that! He is coming pretrib for those who are EXPECTING His coming.

As for the prison, it happens. There are believers right now in prison just because they love Jesus. But this is not the time of God's wrath. It is just that we live in a world owned by Satan. It is very possible that some in prisons now around the world will end up being martyred. Neither will that be God's wrath. God is not angry with His church!

However, the day is coming when God's wrath WILL be poured out. And at the same time, Satan will be given 42 months of total authority over this earth. It will be almost as if God turns His back on the world. Satan will rule through the Beast. And He will OVERCOME the believers that chose not to escape, or those who became believers too late for the rapture.

If any readers just want to be here for those days of great tribulation, I believe God will accommodate you. But again, I would ask you WHY? Why set your OWN appointment, because God will not set one for you?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

You not answering my question, im not disputing a rapture at present with you, Im disputing the use of scriptures like psalm for the rapture, where do you fit the following in your eschatology with psalms 27:5:

10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

And Keras

Revelation 13:9-10 You have ears; so hear this! Whoever will be taken prisoner, to prison they will go, whoever is to be killed, by the sword they will be slain. This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people.

Revelation 2:⁸ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

⁹ I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

¹⁰ Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

¹¹ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

This is a part of the letters sent to the 7 churches that were in Asia. They were Jewish churches. They disappeared - probably during the Diaspora.  Each church got a different warning. In Context, these letters from God were given to people around 95 AD.

 

Some would like to say that each church represents an age, and that the Laodicean church is for our age. I can neither agree or disagree. I find things written to each church that fits problems today. It is my personal opinion that each believer, as they read, can be convicted by something and determine to change.

 

However, IN CONTEXT this was given to the church in Smyrna around 95 so the primary meaning was for them and for that time. We know from history that the Jews were persecuted at the time of the diaspora. So much that they scattered around the world.

 

Therefore, to use such a verse to deny that God has made a way of escape from the days of great tribulation that is to come is simply using a verse out of context.  Many people do it.

Edited June 13, 2017 by iamlamad

[Keras]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

I believe David was speaking also of the spiritual battle in the spiritual realm which is a real thing. If we have real faith in Christ JESUS when we are in a spiritual battle all these scriptures become the reality.  Same with Luke 10:19-20 , the Lord wasn't talking about stomping on real snakes and scorpions.

Right, and what Commander takes His troops out of the battle before it's won?

But with people like Iamlamad, who are locked into the rapture to heaven theory, Isaiah 29:9-12, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, no amount of scriptural truth will change them. But this is how God wants it to be, when the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath comes and be assured it will, Ezekiel 33:33, the faith of all will be tested.

[wingnut-]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Revelation 2:⁸ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

⁹ I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

¹⁰ Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

¹¹ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

This is a part of the letters sent to the 7 churches that were in Asia. They were Jewish churches. They disappeared - probably during the Diaspora.  Each church got a different warning. In Context, these letters from God were given to people around 95 AD.

 

Some would like to say that each church represents an age, and that the Laodicean church is for our age. I can neither agree or disagree. I find things written to each church that fits problems today. It is my personal opinion that each believer, as they read, can be convicted by something and determine to change.

 

However, IN CONTEXT this was given to the church in Smyrna around 95 so the primary meaning was for them and for that time. We know from history that the Jews were persecuted at the time of the diaspora. So much that they scattered around the world.

 

Therefore, to use such a verse to deny that God has made a way of escape from the days of great tribulation that is to come is simply using a verse out of context.  Many people do it.

 

This is hilarious, you will make a statement like this about one of the letters to the churches and cling to Revelation 3:10 like it is law.  Naturally you must be part of the faithful church here in America lol.  Let me guess, because it is to the church in Philadelphia it must be America right lol.  Every time I hear Revelation 3:10 from now on I am really going to get a good chuckle.  I guess you fail to notice that not one negative comment was made to this church, not one thing against them. 

 

[iamlamad]

On 6/14/2017 at 0:49 AM, wingnut- said:

 

This is hilarious, you will make a statement like this about one of the letters to the churches and cling to Revelation 3:10 like it is law.  Naturally you must be part of the faithful church here in America lol.  Let me guess, because it is to the church in Philadelphia it must be America right lol.  Every time I hear Revelation 3:10 from now on I am really going to get a good chuckle.  I guess you fail to notice that not one negative comment was made to this church, not one thing against them. 

 

If you have noticed over the years - but I guess you have not - I very seldom use the "wrath" scripture in Rev. 3:10 for a pretrib argument. I usually use Paul's scripture of God not setting any appointments. So I don't have to cling to Rev. 3:10 as if it was law.  We really need to keep these verses in context.

So you go ahead and chuckle: just make sure you believe Luke 21:36 and pray you be found worthy to escape what is coming.

Anyone came make the bible fit any theory if they are willing to take verses out of context:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

 

Now, will you keep Matthew 24 in context? I get the same kind of chuckle when someone imagines the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture! 

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you have noticed over the years - but I guess you have not - I very seldom use the "wrath" scripture in Rev. 3:10 for a pretrib argument. I usually use Paul's scripture of God not setting any appointments. So I don't have to cling to Rev. 3:10 as if it was law.  We really need to keep these verses in context.

 

Very seldom and never are two very different things, aren't they?  The fact that you would ever use something from one of the seven churches while disregarding the other six speaks volumes.  I'm really not sure how it is people justify that, other than to say everyone seems to want to believe they are from the faithful church.  Of course, if that were true the world would be a very different place wouldn't it?  We live in a time when so many people forsake gathering together, and they do so because of the damage a church in the past has done to them, or maybe you haven't noticed that.

In context, the seven churches appear in the book of Revelation, which links them to the premise of the book, the end times.  That makes all seven of them applicable at that time, or they wouldn't be in there at all.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you go ahead and chuckle: just make sure you believe Luke 21:36 and pray you be found worthy to escape what is coming.

 

Perhaps you should heed your own advice in regards to context.  You needn't worry about those of us who disagree with you, we are prepared for what is coming.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Anyone came make the bible fit any theory if they are willing to take verses out of context:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

 

 

A great example of how you are handling this Psalm, I call that cherry picking.  Take one verse completely out of context from the body of the passage and hail it as evidence of your escape theology.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now, will you keep Matthew 24 in context?

 

Of course I am going to keep it in context.  I understand that the entire NT was written for everyone.

God bless

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Very seldom and never are two very different things, aren't they?  The fact that you would ever use something from one of the seven churches while disregarding the other six speaks volumes.  I'm really not sure how it is people justify that, other than to say everyone seems to want to believe they are from the faithful church.  Of course, if that were true the world would be a very different place wouldn't it?  We live in a time when so many people forsake gathering together, and they do so because of the damage a church in the past has done to them, or maybe you haven't noticed that.

In context, the seven churches appear in the book of Revelation, which links them to the premise of the book, the end times.  That makes all seven of them applicable at that time, or they wouldn't be in there at all.

Perhaps you should heed your own advice in regards to context.  You needn't worry about those of us who disagree with you, we are prepared for what is coming.

A great example of how you are handling this Psalm, I call that cherry picking.  Take one verse completely out of context from the body of the passage and hail it as evidence of your escape theology.

Of course I am going to keep it in context.  I understand that the entire NT was written for everyone.

God bless

I don't know about you, but I learn as I go along. I did not know everything then years ago that I know today.

The verse in Rev. 3:10 also FITS the rapture. And it does not seem to fit a church that existed in 95 AD. All those people died long long ago, and that church ceased to exist.  They certainly missed the "hour of temptation" for the world that is still ahead of us.  Did God keep His word that that generation? I would say He did. However, are there churches today that practice The God kind of love? Or could we ask, are there Philadelphia type churches today that COULD miss "the hour of temptation?" Well, not in your theory, but certainly in the Pretrib scenario. Now, let's look at the other side of this coin: if there are churches today (the right time, it seems, for that "hour of temptation" that are NOT a Philadelphia type church, and has NOT kept "his word of patience," does it make sense then that God would NOT keep them from the hour of temptation?

It is an absolute fact that these churches existed and that what was written about then had to have some meaning for the first readers. It was written TO them. However, people in any generation could apply it to their generation.  It seems what was written to this Philadelphia church does not fit that 95 AD timeframe as well as it fits today. Therefore, upon further reading, I change my mind. I say this verse FITs our generation. Now, can you find another "hour of temptation" that came upon the world some short time after 95 AD?

I really don't know why you are harping so on the Psalm 27 verse.  Notice again what I wrote:

It is a perfect picture of the pretrib rapture. 

Did I call it "evidence?" No, I just said it "fits." I understand it does not fit your theory of the rapture. I am sorry about that. I still say it fits. Did I say this WAS the rapture? No. I said it was a perfect picture of the rapture. Of course it is not a perfect picture of YOUR theory of the rapture, but it is of the pretrib rapture and Paul's rapture. I fully expect according to the scriptures to be caught up and taken to heaven. And that will happen pretrib.  If you DON'T expect this, chances are good it will not happen to you.

It seems to be a parallel verse to this one too:

Isaiah 26: ²⁰ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't know about you, but I learn as I go along. I did not know everything then years ago that I know today.

 

I learn something new all the time, that is the beauty of scripture.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The verse in Rev. 3:10 also FITS the rapture. 

 

I don't disagree with you, the problem is it does not fit your theory of the rapture.  An hour is an hour, it is not 7 years.  It's funny how people treat Greek as though it is an extinct language, it is very telling as to whether one is actually fluent in Greek or simply trying to break it down from a book.  If a friend of mine speaks to me in Greek, and we are going to meet somewhere and he says he will see me in an hour, he means an hour.  If it is 6pm, I will expect him around 7pm, not 7 years later.

The hour appears in chapter 18, the fall of Babylon, where we are told it is destroyed in an hour.  At the outset of the chapter we see the quote regarding "Come out of her my people", and it all lines up with the rest of scripture in regards to His coming.

The other problem is that you want to disregard what is said to the other six churches, they hold the same value as what is said to this church.  Including the church in Smyrna, that not one thing is said to them to reflect a negative connotation.  You don't want to address that issue, or the fact there are 7 lampstands, not just one.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

However, are there churches today that practice The God kind of love? Or could we ask, are there Philadelphia type churches today that COULD miss "the hour of temptation?" Well, not in your theory, but certainly in the Pretrib scenario. Now, let's look at the other side of this coin: if there are churches today (the right time, it seems, for that "hour of temptation" that are NOT a Philadelphia type church, and has NOT kept "his word of patience," does it make sense then that God would NOT keep them from the hour of temptation?

 

This is a whole new can of worms you are opening.  You may not mean it this way, but what you are implying is that there are believers out there whose salvation is conditional on works.  They haven't done enough good things to deserve being removed, the suggestion speaks against the perfect sacrifice made by Jesus.  It also speaks against scripture in that God is no respecter of persons, nor does He show favoritism.  So no, it absolutely does not make sense in the slightest.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I really don't know why you are harping so on the Psalm 27 verse.

 

I'm harping on it because trying to attribute it to the church and the rapture is blatantly wrong, and I don't want anyone to follow this ideology.  It is wrong because it is taking one verse from a Psalm and trying to make it say something it does not say.  Believers will NOT be surrounded by their enemies in heaven, they will NOT have to seek the Lord in heaven, they will NOT have to worry about Him turning from them in anger in heaven.  Here are some of the verses in that Psalm that make your attempt to place it in heaven impossible.

 

Psalms 27:3 Though an army may encamp against me,
My heart shall not fear;
Though war may rise against me,
In this I will be confident.

 

Do you believe an army will encamp against believers in heaven?  Will war arise against believers in heaven?

 

Psalms 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice!
Have mercy also upon me, and answer me.
8 When You said, “Seek My face,”
My heart said to You, “Your face, Lord, I will seek.”
9 Do not hide Your face from me;
Do not turn Your servant away in anger;
You have been my help;
Do not leave me nor forsake me,
O God of my salvation.

 

Will the Lord not hear those who cry out in heaven?  Will the Lord hide his face from believers in heaven?  Will the Lord turn away in anger from believers in heaven?  Will the Lord leave or forsake believers in heaven?

 

Psalms 27:11 Teach me Your way, O Lord,
And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;
For false witnesses have risen against me,
And such as breathe out violence.

 

Will the Lord have to lead believers to a smooth path in heaven because of their enemies?  Will believers in heaven have to worry about the Lord delivering them to the will of their adversaries in heaven?  Will false witnesses arise against believers in heaven?  Will they breathe out violence in heaven?

 

Psalms 27:14 Wait on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!

 

Will you be waiting on the Lord in heaven?  Will you need courage and your heart strengthened in heaven?

The answer to every one of those questions should be rather obvious.  Which means that one verse from within this Psalm does not "fit" with anything in heaven, which is where you believe the rapture leads to.  Now if you want to claim this speaks to Israel in the wilderness during the time of the great tribulation, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  They are being protected in the wilderness right?  Hidden in His pavilion?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I fully expect according to the scriptures to be caught up and taken to heaven. And that will happen pretrib.  If you DON'T expect this, chances are good it will not happen to you.

 

This scare tactic is not any more convincing than your theory in regards to the one verse from this Psalm.  It is actually quite sad that one would stoop to such a tactic.  God's grace is sufficient for all believers, there is zero scriptural support for an attempt to make an eschatological view a salvational issue.  If anything it exposes the weakness of your overall argument.

God bless

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Wingnut has called you out on this one, how is it you wish to keep the other 6 in their "historical" context and yet keep one of them out of its "historical" context?

Even your methodology is inconsistent.

Further show me in history the specific 10 days of awe was fulfilled for Smyrna?

Lets further talk about context.

Psalm 27 is in duality

The first half

(1)  The Lord is my Light and my Salvation

(2)  … my enemies and my foes – they stumbled and fell

(3)  Even if an army should encamp against me

(4)  One thing I ask of the Lord, that is what I seek

(5)  in the day of evilHe shall hide me in the hidden places of His tent

The second half

(9)  Do not abandon me, O God of my salvation

(12)  Do not deliver me over to the will of my enemies

(12) for false witnesses have risen up against me 

(8)  Your face, O Lord, I seek

(9) Do not hide Your face from me

The first half shows activities from heaven to earth earthward – from top to bottom.

It is God whio gives light to man and saves him. Even mans victory over his enemies is not the result of his own human efforts. 

The second half shows the complete opposite, this time from man to God - from bottom to up

Here, it is man who appeals urgently to God, the mood is one of desperation - insecurity, the desire to be drawn closer to God, to seek God, for God not to hide His face.

For man – frightened and anxious, thirsty for salvation and relief, longing for God, whi has hid his face and God does not hurry to the encounter, then WE  must seek God… with agility, assiduously, conscientiously, with exertion and compulsion. This is how one seeks and finds God.

This has absolutly nothing to do with the rapture but is a fundamental teaching on the anxiety and fear of seeking GOD whi has hid himself, which you rob the context of.

Infact psalm 27 undermines the notion of a pretrib rapture

 By the way...Psalm 27 is actually connected to Rev 2:8-11 particularly the phrase tribulation for 10 days....

Thanks, In Christ. I agree in part. But the truth is, when the rapture takes place, pretrib, we WILL BE HIDDEN away from His wrath on earth because we will be in heaven. You can disagree with this scenario until the cows come home, but it will still be true.

Sorry, I was not a part of that Smyrna congregation. I really don't know what happened to them. All I know is that church is not there today.  Since they were Christian believers, but yet Jews that were converted, I really don't know if they were still keeping the Jewish Feasts. I have been in various churches now for 70 years, and I have never yet seen any church pay any attention to the 10 days of awe.