Guest BacKaran Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 12 hours ago, Anonymous Aristotle said: Is this what you may be looking for? Old Testament Appearances of Christ Jesus is first seen in the Old Testament as the person who appeared as “the Angel of the Lord” in his sudden confrontation with Sarah’s maidser- vant, Hagar (Gen 16:7). Thereafter, he continued to appear intermittently throughout the earlier books of the Old Testament. These real occur- rences, initiated by God, were characterized by the fact that they were convincing revelations of his person and work, as much as they were also transitory, fleeting, but audible and clearly visible appear- ances. He came temporally in the form of a human, much before his final incarnation as a babe in Bethlehem, yet this same “Angel of the LORD” is called and is addressed often as “the LORD/Yahweh” himself (Gen 12:7; 17:1; 19:1; etc.). This “Angel of the LORD” was a title that stood for his office, but it did not describe his nature. The Hebrew word for “angel” (mal’ak) had the basic idea of one who was “sent,” a “messenger.” Of the 214 usages of the He- brew term used for “angel,” about one-third of them refer to what is labeled by theologians as a “Christophany,” a temporary appearance of Christ in the Old Testament. It is certain, however, that this special angel of the Lord is divine, for Hagar “...gave this name to the LORD, who spoke with her [as the Angel of the LORD]: ‘You are the God who sees me,’ as she observed, ‘I have now seen the One who sees me’” (Gen 16:13). 1 Other instances of Jesus’ appearances in the Old Testa- ment can be seen representatively in Genesis 22:11, 15, where it was the Angel of Yahweh who spoke from heaven to Abraham when Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, and stopped him from proceeding. Again, it was the Angel of Yahweh who appeared to Moses in the flame of fire in Exodus 3:2. Throughout the dialogue at that burning bush, it was also declared that he was no one less than “Yah- weh,” who spoke at that time, causing Moses to hide his face from him (Ex 3:6). Later, it was the same Angel of the Lord who appeared to the wife of Manoah (Judg 13:2-25), mother of Samson, whom she reported to her husband was indeed a “man of God” that had appeared to her. When Manoah asked for the “Angel of the LORD” to also appear to him as he had appeared to his wife, the Angel repeated the appearances and his conversations to him, after which he ascended in the flame of the altar (Judg 13:20), implying the sacrifice was in worship of the Lord himself! Moreover, this “An- gel” is regarded as a “Redeemer,” who saves Israel from evil (Isa 63:9). How can readers of the Old Testament doubt that these sample instances, along with a host of other such descrip- tions in the earlier Scriptures, were anything less than pre-incarnate appearances of our Lord Jesus in real flesh, even if it was in those days only a temporary in-flesh-ment/ incarnation for the immediate needs of the people until he would come and take on flesh permanently? Oftentimes Jesus came to earth to help his people in their distress and their need for direction. The only examples of the Angel of Yahweh turning against Israel occur in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, where the Angel is the agent of God’s punishment of David, because he disobeyed God and conducted a national census. This continues at >Jesus in the Old Testament By Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Ph.D.,President Emeritus Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary Love love love Walter Kaiser. Was blessed to meet him at a conference he put on for our small church a few years ago. Wonderful man of God! Very knowledgeable and kind.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
april1234 Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 8 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/08/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 On 6/13/2017 at 9:00 PM, HAZARD said: John 1: 1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2, The same was in the beginning with God. 3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1: 14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word, who was with God and also was God, and has been God and with God throughout eternity past, as a member of the Godhead, He became flesh so that He could die for our sins. As God he could not die, but as a man He could die. It was He who created everything, spoke with Adam appeared to and spoke with Abraham and Moses. The Word, before He became flesh even spoke with and wrestled with Jacob, and named him Israel. Gen. 32:24-39; 24, And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25, And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26, And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27, And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28, And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29, And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. When I first read this, I was going to reference the Trinity, and then I was going to reference John 1! So I guess I don't really have anything to say anymore as others took care of it for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, april1234 said: When I first read this, I was going to reference the Trinity, and then I was going to reference John 1! So I guess I don't really have anything to say anymore as others took care of it for me! Notice in verse 30 what is said! V 30, And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,861 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,763 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 18 hours ago, Anonymous Aristotle said: Is this what you may be looking for? Old Testament Appearances of Christ Jesus is first seen in the Old Testament as the person who appeared as “the Angel of the Lord” in his sudden confrontation with Sarah’s maidser- vant, Hagar (Gen 16:7). This is not apostolic teachings. Quote Thereafter, he continued to appear intermittently throughout the earlier books of the Old Testament. These real occur- rences, initiated by God, were characterized by the fact that they were convincing revelations of his person and work, as much as they were also transitory, fleeting, but audible and clearly visible appear- ances. What a shame to teach this in a seminary. Quote He came temporally in the form of a human, much before his final incarnation as a babe in Bethlehem This statement is not apostolic. Quote , yet this same “Angel of the LORD” is called and is addressed often as “the LORD/Yahweh” himself (Gen 12:7; 17:1; 19:1; etc.). Angels were real, they were created before man. Quote This “Angel of the LORD” The Lord had many Angels, which one? Quote was a title that stood for his office, but it did not describe his nature. The Hebrew word for “angel” (mal’ak) had the basic idea of one who was “sent,” a “messenger.” Quote Of the 214 usages of the He- brew term used for “angel,” about one-third of them refer to what is labeled by theologians as a “Christophany,” a temporary appearance of Christ in the Old Testament You made it clear that this is not apostolic teachings. Quote . It is certain, however, that this special angel of the Lord is divine, for Hagar “...gave this name to the LORD, who spoke with her [as the Angel of the LORD]: ‘You are the God who sees me,’ as she observed, ‘I have now seen the One who sees me’” (Gen 16:13). 1 Quote Other instances of Jesus’ appearances in the Old Testa- ment can be seen representatively in Genesis 22:11, 15, where it was the Angel of Yahweh who spoke from heaven to Abraham when Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, and stopped him from proceeding. You need to read this passage in the scriptures and then see if you can make the same claim again. Quote Again, it was the Angel of Yahweh who appeared to Moses in the flame of fire in Exodus 3:2. Throughout the dialogue at that burning bush, it was also declared that he was no one less than “Yah- weh,” who spoke at that time, causing Moses to hide his face from him (Ex 3:6). Again to different takes on the same account. Quote Later, it was the same Angel of the Lord who appeared to the wife of Manoah (Judg 13:2-25), mother of Samson, whom she reported to her husband was indeed a “man of God” that had appeared to her. When Manoah asked for the “Angel of the LORD” to also appear to him as he had appeared to his wife, the Angel repeated the appearances and his conversations to him, after which he ascended in the flame of the altar (Judg 13:20), implying the sacrifice was in worship of the Lord himself! Moreover, this “An- gel” is regarded as a Departing from the scriptures, a little here , a little there, step by step, we have a new Bible. Quote “Redeemer,” who saves Israel from evil (Isa 63:9). How can readers of the Old Testament doubt that these sample instances, along with a host of other such descrip- tions in the earlier Scriptures, Quote were anything less than pre-incarnate appearances of our Lord Jesus in real flesh, This against the Gospel truth. Quote even if it was in those days only a temporary in-flesh-ment/ incarnation for the immediate needs of the people until he would come and take on flesh permanently? I thought I had heard everything, this is not apostolic. Quote .. Oftentimes Jesus came to earth to help his people in their distress and their need for direction.. The name of the Lord God of the Jews was not JESUS. Quote The only examples of the Angel of Yahweh turning against Israel occur in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, where the Angel is the agent of God’s punishment of David, because he disobeyed God and conducted a national census. This continues at >Jesus in the Old Testament By Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Ph.D.,President Emeritus Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary I needed to ask you something, then I realized that you are not the author. Do you think you can speak on his behalf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymous Aristotle Posted June 15, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 264 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 15, 2017 8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: This is not apostolic teachings. What a shame to teach this in a seminary. This statement is not apostolic. Angels were real, they were created before man. The Lord had many Angels, which one? You made it clear that this is not apostolic teachings. You need to read this passage in the scriptures and then see if you can make the same claim again. Again to different takes on the same account. Departing from the scriptures, a little here , a little there, step by step, we have a new Bible. This against the Gospel truth. I thought I had heard everything, this is not apostolic. The name of the Lord God of the Jews was not JESUS. I needed to ask you something, then I realized that you are not the author. Do you think you can speak on his behalf? Do you feel you can speak against the biblical acumen of Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Ph.D.,President Emeritus Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,861 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,763 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 6 hours ago, Anonymous Aristotle said: Do you feel you can speak against the biblical acumen of Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Ph.D.,President Emeritus Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary This is not about any one of us, it is about speaking and standing by the sound truth. Some of his claims have nothing to do, and they not from Devine quidance, they are not from the Holy Spirit. "Temporary in-fleshsmen, till he takes flesh permanently". This is something I 've been waiting to hear all my life, very clever indeed. And where are the prophesies eluring to that, where are the reference from JESUS, and the disciples teachings? To the contrary, we have the writing in the scriptures that makes clear that there was only one way for the "Word", to ender our world and put on flesh, and this it's not by a wish or by magic. The only way it was for the Creator who had the Life of God to live everything behind, his former estate, and start from the beginning. As the Angel Gabriel said: the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and you will conceived and in time you will give birth to the Savior of the world. She had to have the full sircle of pregnancy NINE months. The fetus, the embryo, the eventual development of the brain and the other parts of the embryo, all the time depending on the sustenance for his life from the mother. The same as every other human been. That's how the Lord God became flesh, or he was exactly like us, as Moses had fortold " one like you, from your race, one from amongs you, he will be the CHRIST. He will bring something new, him you have to follow in to what he will bring to you, something greater than what you have from me, which I cannot give it to you. Being born like you, needing the same nutrition like you, the mother's milk to stay alive, and be subjected to the elements of death the same way all of us are. That's what his disciples said, we have touched him, feel him, watch him been subject and being subjected to the same things, in all things like we do, been hunger, heat, cold, the need to wash and use the washroom facilities as we all are. Been injured, and in need for time to be healed. Been bitten by mosckitos, and brouse like we do. He could die for extortion, and dehydration and hunger, and lost of blood. In need for sleep, and when he was growing in need of his mother, totally depending on his mother, who teach him the first words, ma, ma. That's how we Know that Jesus was human. He had blood in him, real blood, the same group as his mother, and he call her mother, and he said I am her Son, till his last breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 2 Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 Are there any specific references to JESUS having been alive or interacting with humans in the past (the Old Testament)....not the Christ, or the Son, but JESUS? And if so, what is the context, is it actually using the name Jesus to direct us to the Son or the Christ? Please use a reference and keep in mind context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymous Aristotle Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 264 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 39 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: This is not about any one of us, it is about speaking and standing by the sound truth. Some of his claims have nothing to do, and they not from Devine quidance, they are not from the Holy Spirit. "Temporary in-fleshsmen, till he takes flesh permanently". This is something I 've been waiting to hear all my life, very clever indeed. And where are the prophesies eluring to that, where are the reference from JESUS, and the disciples teachings? To the contrary, we have the writing in the scriptures that makes clear that there was only one way for the "Word", to ender our world and put on flesh, and this it's not by a wish or by magic. The only way it was for the Creator who had the Life of God to live everything behind, his former estate, and start from the beginning. As the Angel Gabriel said: the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and you will conceived and in time you will give birth to the Savior of the world. She had to have the full sircle of pregnancy NINE months. The fetus, the embryo, the eventual development of the brain and the other parts of the embryo, all the time depending on the sustenance for his life from the mother. The same as every other human been. That's how the Lord God became flesh, or he was exactly like us, as Moses had fortold " one like you, from your race, one from amongs you, he will be the CHRIST. He will bring something new, him you have to follow in to what he will bring to you, something greater than what you have from me, which I cannot give it to you. Being born like you, needing the same nutrition like you, the mother's milk to stay alive, and be subjected to the elements of death the same way all of us are. That's what his disciples said, we have touched him, feel him, watch him been subject and being subjected to the same things, in all things like we do, been hunger, heat, cold, the need to wash and use the washroom facilities as we all are. Been injured, and in need for time to be healed. Been bitten by mosckitos, and brouse like we do. He could die for extortion, and dehydration and hunger, and lost of blood. In need for sleep, and when he was growing in need of his mother, totally depending on his mother, who teach him the first words, ma, ma. That's how we Know that Jesus was human. He had blood in him, real blood, the same group as his mother, and he call her mother, and he said I am her Son, till his last breath. At this stage I wonder if you read the writing that I linked. Because it does not seem like it from your remarks. I hope you find what you're looking for. In the meantime , I hope what I posted helps someone in their studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymous Aristotle Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 264 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 16, 2017 The Strange Math of Jesus: Emptying Himself by Adding Human Nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 16, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,225 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,512 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted June 16, 2017 On 14/06/2017 at 6:57 AM, Mike 2 said: I've posed these questions in another thread but it may be appropriate to ask it separately. Are there any specific references to JESUS having been alive or interacting with humans in the past (the Old Testament)....not the Christ, or the Son, but JESUS? And if so, what is the context, is it actually using the name Jesus to direct us to the Son or the Christ? Please use a reference and keep in mind context. Hi Mike 2, `Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly: I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."`(John 8: 58) Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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