ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

 

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Hi bro wingnut,

Good scriptures there. Now you will note the timing - when the harvest is being brought in,  - of the wicked and of the sons of the kingdom. This is at the very end of the age, just before the great white throne judgment and the new heavens and new earth. The Body of Christ is NOT part of that `harvest,` but have gone to their reward before that.

`...therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age..`(Matt. 13: 40)

`the nations which are in the four corners of the earth....fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And the will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.`(Rev. 20: 8 - 10)

 

regards, Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 

First, there's no way to be raptured before it starts since it's started already!

Second, because we're already IN the tribulation, we don't need to worry about questions like that above.

 

Hi Retro,

Yes we do have trials and tribulations but we are certainly not in the time of God`s judgment and wrath, which is called the Day of the Lord, (God Almighty, judge). We know from God`s word that `Day`is a period of time as well as a specific Day when the Lord returns.

Matthew 24: 8 tells us that that period of time begins as a woman travails with child birth - suddenly the pang come then they continue and build in intensity. The Apostle Paul tells us this also.

`brethren...you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so coms as a thief in the night. For when THEY say, "Peace and Safety!" then SUDDEN destruction comes upon THEM as LABOUR PAINS upon a pregnant woman.`  (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

Thus the LABOUR PAINS are the beginning and certainly not for thousands of years!!!

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Timing is everything. Matthew 13 contains parables ABOUT THE KINGDOM. That's important to note because, in saying that, if you recognize the Kingdom coming when the King returns, then this occurs at the END of the Millennium. If you'll read just a little farther, you'll find...

Matthew 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = "age").
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (the GWTJ): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This corresponds to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28: (Bear in mind that Paul's focus in 1 Cor. 15 is the Resurrection.)

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:  (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24  (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

So, in speaking of three Resurrections, that of the Messiah, that of those who belong to the Messiah when He returns, and that of the rest who are resurrected after the Millennium, he comments on the nature of the Messiah's Kingdom: He will be subduing all of His enemies throughout the Millennium, putting down all rule and all authority and power, FINISHING with the destruction of death.

At the end of the Millennium, the Messiah shall also Himself be subject to God His Father, and He delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father, i.e., "the Kingdom of their Father."

Hi Retro,

Good thoughts there bro. And when Christ delivers up the Kingdom to God, that includes every rulership in every realm - the earth, the New Jerusalem, and Christ`s seat of power and authority above all.

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

59 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Thus the LABOUR PAINS are the beginning and certainly not for thousands of years!!!

 

Hello Marilyn,

I'm curious as to what you mean exactly by the above in regards to the labor pains, are you suggesting that they do not begin until the tribulation?  If so, I am curious as to your understanding regarding this passage from Romans, which indicates the labor pains have been going on for some time.  Enjoying the direction this discussion is going, so looking forward to your clarification and response.

 

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

 

I'm unclear as to whether you are referring to just the passage from Paul, or in regards to what is stated in Matthew 24.

God bless

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi bro wingnut,

Good scriptures there. Now you will note the timing - when the harvest is being brought in,  - of the wicked and of the sons of the kingdom. This is at the very end of the age, just before the great white throne judgment and the new heavens and new earth. The Body of Christ is NOT part of that `harvest,` but have gone to their reward before that.

`...therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age..`(Matt. 13: 40)

`the nations which are in the four corners of the earth....fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And the will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.`(Rev. 20: 8 - 10)

 

regards, Marilyn. 

 

Hello Marilyn,

Yes, the timing is always the sticky point as we have different views approaching things.  It is often about misunderstanding from the point of what the other person's viewpoint is as opposed to our own.  I guess when it comes to the end of the age, I am not really clear as to what your meaning is on that.  If I am understanding you correctly, you believe this is post-millennium?  Is this in your opinion the same gathering as Matthew 24 then?  Also, if this is post-millennium then are you saying that all of the Jewish elect face the GWTJ?

I'll wait for your response as to clarification.

God bless

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

I'm curious as to what you mean exactly by the above in regards to the labor pains, are you suggesting that they do not begin until the tribulation?  If so, I am curious as to your understanding regarding this passage from Romans, which indicates the labor pains have been going on for some time.  Enjoying the direction this discussion is going, so looking forward to your clarification and response.

 

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

 

I'm unclear as to whether you are referring to just the passage from Paul, or in regards to what is stated in Matthew 24.

God bless

Hi Wingnut,

I agree, good discussion here bro. Glad you brought up that scripture concerning the whole of creation groaning with birth pangs. That would be the whole of creation being affected by the fall of man, separated from God, till the new earth & new heavens time.

`...because the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption...` (Rom. 8: 21)

The Matt. 24: 8 & 1 Thess. 5: 3 travail, labour pains, refers to the Day of the Lord, the time of God`s judgment upon the rebellious nations. We know that `they shall not escape... sudden destruction comes upon them...`  referring to the wicked, those in darkness. Creation is not delivered then & will still be `groaning through the millennium till the new earth & new heavens time.

Hope that is clearer of what I believe. Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Yes, the timing is always the sticky point as we have different views approaching things.  It is often about misunderstanding from the point of what the other person's viewpoint is as opposed to our own.  I guess when it comes to the end of the age, I am not really clear as to what your meaning is on that.  If I am understanding you correctly, you believe this is post-millennium?  Is this in your opinion the same gathering as Matthew 24 then?  Also, if this is post-millennium then are you saying that all of the Jewish elect face the GWTJ?

I'll wait for your response as to clarification.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

Yes discussing and listening & trying to see from another`s view takes time and patience & also not just trying to win whatever. So I am pleased that we can listen and try to understand each other.

Now my view of the angels gathering in the harvest of the wicked and sons of the kingdom, is at the end of the age, as the Lord said. And yes that is post-millennium. The final ingathering. This is not the gathering of Matthew 24 which is only the Jews that have been scattered through out the nations in the tribulation. Here is the difference as I see it.

1. End of Tribulation. Jews gathered from through out the world and brought to Jerusalem. (Isa. 66: 18 - 20) The nations will be judged by the Lord as to how they treated the Jews in the tribulation. Those that looked after them when they were being persecuted will go into the millennial kingdom. (Matt. 25: 31 - 46)

2. End of the Millennium. The Great white throne.

- The people of Israel who were obedient to their king.

- The people of the nations who learned of God`s ways & worshipped the king.

- The people down through the ages who never heard of the Messiah/Jesus, but lived according to their conscience will be judged on their works. (Rev. 20: 12)

All these ones will be able to go into the new earth, while the wicked will go into the lake of fire. (Matt. 13: 39 - 43)

This is the final sorting out of those to go into God`s kingdom and those who go into the fire. Note that there are other groups who do not go to that final judgment because they believed what God promised. They are the OT saints looking for the city, and the Body of Christ, looking for Christ their Head to take them to His throne in the third heaven. Each realm will then have rulership under Christ.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[wingnut-]

14 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Wingnut,

I agree, good discussion here bro. Glad you brought up that scripture concerning the whole of creation groaning with birth pangs. That would be the whole of creation being affected by the fall of man, separated from God, till the new earth & new heavens time.

`...because the creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption...` (Rom. 8: 21)

The Matt. 24: 8 & 1 Thess. 5: 3 travail, labour pains, refers to the Day of the Lord, the time of God`s judgment upon the rebellious nations. We know that `they shall not escape... sudden destruction comes upon them...`  referring to the wicked, those in darkness. Creation is not delivered then & will still be `groaning through the millennium till the new earth & new heavens time.

Hope that is clearer of what I believe. Marilyn.

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for the clarification on that.  I agree that the labor pains began with the fall of man as well.  For any woman who has given birth, or any man like myself who has been present through the delivery of a child, we certainly have a fairly good understanding as to how labor pains intensify over time.  Ultimately they are strongest just before the delivery, so I agree that the labor pains in Matthew and  I Thessalonians are at the final stages, the sudden destruction being somewhat of a metaphor for the birth itself.  In regards to the overall topic at hand, I wanted to get your opinion on this passage as well, written by Paul, and ask your opinion on how it falls in the overall picture in your view according to timing and what it represents.

 

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

The passage from the OT that Paul quotes is from Isaiah 54:1 if you want to look at that as well.

God bless

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for the clarification on that.  I agree that the labor pains began with the fall of man as well.  For any woman who has given birth, or any man like myself who has been present through the delivery of a child, we certainly have a fairly good understanding as to how labor pains intensify over time.  Ultimately they are strongest just before the delivery, so I agree that the labor pains in Matthew and  I Thessalonians are at the final stages, the sudden destruction being somewhat of a metaphor for the birth itself.  In regards to the overall topic at hand, I wanted to get your opinion on this passage as well, written by Paul, and ask your opinion on how it falls in the overall picture in your view according to timing and what it represents.

 

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

The passage from the OT that Paul quotes is from Isaiah 54:1 if you want to look at that as well.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

This is as I see it -

1. Earthly Jerusalem - represents the Law, bringing Israel to Christ. (Gal. 3: 24)

2. Heavenly Jerusalem - represents the heavenly promise through Christ.

`...in Christ Jesus that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.`(Gal. 3: 14)

`...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.` (Gal. 5: 18)

Paul is just comparing the 2 covenants - earthly and heavenly - law and the promise (thr Christ)

regards, Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I do agree that in this context that the word heaven is referring to the atmospheric heavens. No one is in the atmospheric heavens, but as we say `scattered to the four winds.` Isaiah clearly shows that ingathering from all the nations, as I said before. (Isa. 66: 20)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Actually, people - MANY people - ARE in the atmospheric heavens. Transportaton by helicopter, airplane, or jet, and even including rockets are thousands of people IN the atmosphere. At the time Yesha`yahu wrote out God's prophecy, the skies were empty, and he may not have truly understood what he was writing, but that's the nature of YHWH'S prophecy.

Isaiah 60:8-22
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
KJV

All I would add is that this is at the BEGINNING of His Kingdom, not at the end! What would be the point of it being at the end of the Messiah's reign? No, the presence of the King shining brighter than the noonday sun will make it one VERY LONG day!