ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

Pretrib is the only view that allows for 'IMMINENCE.'

Shalom, enoob57.

Actually, my view doesn't do too badly with imminence. For instance, since we are already IN such a long period of "tribulation," tell me, when will it end? If He's not coming back at the beginning of the "tribulation," then He could only come back sometime "during" (no longer possible in the "middle" since that was a thousand years ago or so, unless the "tribulation" lasts a WHOLE lot longer than anyone expects) or at the "end!"

There are a bunch of opinions regarding the seven seals. How do we know if ANY of them have been opened? Some feel that none of them have been opened, yet. Others believe that we've seen the first seal opened. Others think we may be seeing the effects of the second or third seals broken. How can we tell without a reference point? I believe that the ONLY DEFINITIVE reference point we will have is when the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur, and that's the sixth seal already!

No, pretrib is not the only possibility.

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It BEGINS as a "thief in the night," but it ENDS with the Judgment and Fire, lasting a "THOUSAND YEARS!"

This corresponds to Revelation 19:11-20:15:

Revelation 19:11-20:15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
...
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (lake of burning sulfur), where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

He comes quite unexpectedly from the sky, and after He has reigned for the first 1000 years of His Kingdom, judging and ruling over nations, the Great White Throne Judgment occurs, when death, hades (the Unseen), and those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of burning sulfur.

 

Hey retro,

If I'm understanding you correctly it appears we see things in the same manner.  I am curious as to clarification in regards to the above though, you do see the section regarding the Rider on the White Horse as the start of the millennium, correct?  As in this is where satan is bound upon His coming and then the thousand years?

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Then, He turns over the rulership of the world to His Father, and continues as the King of Israel under His Father.

 

From this point on if I am understanding you correctly, is after the thousand years?  One other thing I am curious about is your closing statement, just for clarification purposes.  At the end of the millennium do you agree that God the Father is dwelling with us as well, as in when the New Jerusalem descends?

God bless

[fixerupper]

Quote

1.Matthew 24. This gives a detailed account of what will happen to Israel & the nations. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not given till many years later when Jesus, the Head of the body reveals His purpose for them and their end-time details through the Apostle Paul.

Mathew 24 is directed to all nations, and is full of end-time details every christian should know about. There's no evidence that it's directed solely to Israel. People believe that because that's what they've been taught by the pre-trib camp, which I'm not.

As they were leaving the temple Mount Jesus said "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."   After they left the Temple mount and were on the Mount of Olives, the disciples posed this three part question.
1. When will these things be. (not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.)
2. What will be the sign of thy coming.
3. What will be the sign of the end of the world. (consummation of the age)

In verse 3 Jesus indirectly answered the question by giving us the first literal sign that would signify tribulation and Jesus' return.  It would come shortly AFTER the massive stones of Wailing Wall fall.  Today there IS "one stone upon another," in the Wailing Wall.  The Muslims want nothing more than to destroy it and completely occupy East Jerusalem.  They claim ownership to it.  The Temple Mount is God's "Holy Place" and the site of Herod's and Solomon’s Temple.  Upon it sits an anti-Christ monument called the Dome of the Rock, God's only personally claimed piece of real estate on the planet. This is an abomination because within the inscription that surrounds the octagonal structure of the Dome are the words, "god (Allah) hath no begotten son." 
 

Quote

ERROR. Believing that Jesus is telling of the Body of Christ`s future in the end-times.

2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

Quote

The `elect` is Israel. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4)
 
ERROR. Believing that the elect in that scripture, is the Body of Christ.

Other than "just saying so," you provide no evidence for what you believe.

Pre-tribulationist would tell you that the word 'elect' in Mathew 24:31 refers ONLY to Jews. They do that because in the text, Jesus clearly indicates the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation. So to make pre-trib fit, they had to remove it entirely from the text, and tell you the chapter is meant only for Jews. Therefore, according to the pre-trib view, since Jesus was speaking only to Jews, the gathering Jesus is talking about occurring at the end of tribulation is meant only for Jews.  They've fabricated "another rapture" to counter that contradiction, and created a host of contradictions.

We know that the 'elect' always refers to Christians, Jesus, or angels in the New Testament.  The word 'elect' is the same word as 'chosen' and in every verse I looked at it always referred to Christians and a few times to angels, and once or twice to Christ. 
The word elect is 'eklektos' which means...

1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect, chosen-'eklektos,' is used in the following verses in the NT where it always refers to Christians... whether Jew or gentile! 

Here are a few examples how the word for 'elect' in Mathew 24 is used elsewhere.

1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Check also...

Matthew 20:16,  John 13:18, 15:16,  Acts 15:22, 15:25,  Romans 8:33, 16:13,  1 Corinthians 1:27-28,  Ephesians 1:4,  Colossians 3:12, James 2:5,  2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1,  1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13,  Revelation 17:14.

If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 
1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

Edited June 20, 2017 by fixerupper

[wingnut-]

On 6/19/2017 at 3:12 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

This is as I see it -

1. Earthly Jerusalem - represents the Law, bringing Israel to Christ. (Gal. 3: 24)

2. Heavenly Jerusalem - represents the heavenly promise through Christ.

`...in Christ Jesus that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.`(Gal. 3: 14)

`...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.` (Gal. 5: 18)

Paul is just comparing the 2 covenants - earthly and heavenly - law and the promise (thr Christ)

regards, Marilyn.

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thanks for indulging me on this, it is a very interesting topic indeed.  I am not ignoring your reply to my other inquiry, but for the moment I am more interested in this end of the discussion so will get back to that other discussion in the future.  I agree with you that Paul is addressing the two covenants in this passage, so this would be my question to you, actually two questions.  Since we know Hagar gave birth to Ishmael, and we know that Ishmael and his offspring represent the enemies of Israel as a nation, then what do you think is being suggested about earthly Jerusalem from that?  Likewise, since we know that heavenly Jerusalem represents the promise for God's children, His elect, would you agree that this is meant to represent all believers?

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn C.

Interpreting Galatians 4:21 to 31 in this way feels to me like the slippage of gears. Somehow, your conclusions are not on track with the original comparison. You've "slipped gears," so to speak.

I will try to highlight with color the TWO factors being compared:

Galatians 4:21-5:6
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law (the Torah), do ye not hear the law (the Torah)?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishmael) by a bondmaid (Hagar), the other (Isaac) by a freewoman (Sarah).
23 But he (Ishmael) who was of the bondwoman (Hagar) was born after the flesh (a human attempt to provide a son); but he (Isaac) of the freewoman (Sarah) was by promise (God's promise to provide a son).
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not (Sarah); break forth and cry, thou that travailest not (Sarah): for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
KJV

25 τὸ γὰρ Ἁγὰρ Σινᾶ ὄρος ἐστὶν ἐν τῇ Ἀραβίᾳ· συστοιχεῖ δὲ τῇ νῦν Ἰερουσαλήμ δουλεύει δὲ μετὰ τῶν τέκνων αὐτῆς.
26 ἡ δὲ ἄνω Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐλευθέρα ἐστίν ἥτις ἐστὶν μήτηρ πάντων ἡμῶν·

This translates to ...

25 the for Hagar Sinai mountain is in the Arabia; marches-in-line-with but the current Jerusalem is-slave but with the children of-her.
26 the but northward Jerusalem free is who is mother all of-us.

Putting it into English order, we get...

25 For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in the Arabia; it falls-in-line-with the current Jerusalem but is in slavery with her children.
26 but the Jerusalem northward is free who is mother of us all.

This passage is NOT talking about the "New Jerusalem"; it's talking about the Jerusalem they knew which was farther north than Mount Sinai. The contrast is between these two mountains, NOT between two Jerusalems!

 

Hey retro,

This is an interesting take on this, but I am not sure I can agree with you.  For example, Paul points us to Isaiah 54, and there are verses within that point to the New Jerusalem.  Here is what I am referring to, and would be interested in what you make of it.

 

Isaiah 54:11 “O you afflicted one,
Tossed with tempest, and not comforted,
Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems,
And lay your foundations with sapphires.
12 I will make your pinnacles of rubies,
Your gates of crystal,
And all your walls of precious stones.
13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord,
And great shall be the peace of your children.
14 In righteousness you shall be established;
You shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear;
And from terror, for it shall not come near you.
15 Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me.
Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake.

 

Now here is some description of the New Jerusalem.

 

Revelation 21:18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

 

What you present would be more convincing if Isaiah 54 referenced Mount Zion as so many OT prophecies do, but in this particular case it does not.  Anyway, just wanted to offer this for consideration and get your take on it from this perspective.

God bless

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob57.

Actually, my view doesn't do too badly with imminence. For instance, since we are already IN such a long period of "tribulation," tell me, when will it end? If He's not coming back at the beginning of the "tribulation," then He could only come back sometime "during" (no longer possible in the "middle" since that was a thousand years ago or so, unless the "tribulation" lasts a WHOLE lot longer than anyone expects) or at the "end!"

There are a bunch of opinions regarding the seven seals. How do we know if ANY of them have been opened? Some feel that none of them have been opened, yet. Others believe that we've seen the first seal opened. Others think we may be seeing the effects of the second or third seals broken. How can we tell without a reference point? I believe that the ONLY DEFINITIVE reference point we will have is when the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur, and that's the sixth seal already!

No, pretrib is not the only possibility.

Actually, my view doesn't do too badly with imminence. For instance, since we are already

IN such a long period of "tribulation," tell me, when will it end? If He's not coming back at the beginning of the "tribulation," then He could only come back sometime "during" (no longer possible in the "middle" since that was a thousand years ago or so, unless the "tribulation" lasts a WHOLE lot longer than anyone expects) or at the "end!"

I think you miss my point anything mid post etc... becomes dated and imminence of no man knows the day or hour is of a much less degree from what is written...
      There is another aspect of your comment pertaining to 'tribulation' and rightly dividing the Scriptures thereof:
There are two types of tribulation in God's Word that which is evil bearing against good ...   and   that which is good bearing against evil ... 
God clearly and distinctly says through Paul

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)

[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This wrath would be identified by those who were reading Mathews letter 10-15 years after this letter of Paul's!  Matt 24  as also Revelation, years after Matthew, with Revelation being contextualized Rev 4:1  "as such" ... Remembering always God The Father poured out His wrath upon His Son so we the adopted would be healed by that!

When you put that imminence with Paul's encouragement of bringing hope it is clear that the appearance of the antichrist is dative of the seals that come... and there is no hope given past that but martyrdom...
Love, Steven

 

[fixerupper]

Quote

I think you miss my point anything mid post etc... becomes dated and imminence of no man knows the day or hour is of a much less degree from what is written...

Dated by who and what?  Daniel's 70TH week?  The day tribulation BEGINS?  No man knows the DAY OR HOUR, but we may know the week, month or year once things really get going.    

Quote

    There is another aspect of your comment pertaining to 'tribulation' and rightly dividing the Scriptures thereof:
There are two types of tribulation in God's Word that which is evil bearing against good ...   and   that which is good bearing against evil ... 
God clearly and distinctly says through Paul

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
This "wrath to come" isn't tribulation.  It's the wrath of God's coming Judgment that occurs after Jesus returns.   

Quote

This wrath would be identified by those who were reading Mathews letter 10-15 years after this letter of Paul's!  Matt 24  as also Revelation, years after Matthew, with Revelation being contextualized Rev 4:1  "as such" ... Remembering always God The Father poured out His wrath upon His Son so we the adopted would be healed by that!

Rev. 4:1 is where John is taken to heaven to be shown things.  That's not a rapture.  

Pre-tribbers would also tell you that Christians are not appointed to wrath therefore God will remove them from earth beforehand.

1 Thessalonians 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

BUT! Take a look at what it is that averts that wrath...SALVATION!  NOT A RAPTURE!

God's wrath is averted by Christ through repentance and nothing else.

Pre-tribbers say that Revelation 3:10 is the strongest scriptural support for the pre-trib rapture.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my command to persevere , I shall also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth, to test those who dwell on earth.

The context of the passage has nothing to do with a rapture.  The word KEEP doesn't imply a removal from but to be protected through. It implies to take care of NOT a removal from.  The promise is to keep believers out of the trial, but to preserve and protect them through the hour of trial.  There are other examples where God's people are protected through trial and judgment.

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.  This passage alone thoroughly debunks pre-tribulationism.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Quote

When you put that imminence with Paul's encouragement of bringing hope it is clear that the appearance of the antichrist is dative of the seals that come... and there is no hope given past that but martyrdom...

Now that's pure speculation. The anti-christ isn't revealed until much later in the book of Revelation, and the seals are meant for our benifit as signs that precede that coming day. Neither will martyrdom be the only option during the later part of tribulation, and I'm not convinced it last 7 yrars. I'm more appt to believe 3 1/2 years. And the kingdom of the man of sin isn't worldwide.

Edited June 21, 2017 by fixerupper

[Swords99]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom, gentlemen.

Actually the "Day of the Lord" IS the whole Millennium, with all the events that lead up to the Millennium. When the Messiah Yeshua`, the "Sun of righteousness," returns, He will give us a 1000-year Day!

Malachi 4:1-6
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
KJV

This is what Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (The GWTJ)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

It BEGINS as a "thief in the night," but it ENDS with the Judgment and Fire, lasting a "THOUSAND YEARS!"

This corresponds to Revelation 19:11-20:15:

Revelation 19:11-20:15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
...
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (lake of burning sulfur), where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

He comes quite unexpectedly from the sky, and after He has reigned for the first 1000 years of His Kingdom, judging and ruling over nations, the Great White Throne Judgment occurs, when death, hades (the Unseen), and those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of burning sulfur.

It's also what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Then, He turns over the rulership of the world to His Father, and continues as the King of Israel under His Father.

The Day of the Lord is a period of time in which God will deal with wicked men directly in fearful judgment.

 

in Zephaniah 1:14-16: “The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."

 

Isaiah 13:9-11 speaks for itself: “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

 

Does the above sound like the Millennium which will be a time of peace when Christ rules in Jerusalem?

Edited June 20, 2017 by Swords99

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hey retro,

If I'm understanding you correctly it appears we see things in the same manner.  I am curious as to clarification in regards to the above though, you do see the section regarding the Rider on the White Horse as the start of the millennium, correct?  As in this is where satan is bound upon His coming and then the thousand years?

Shalom, wingnut-.

Yes, the Rider on the White Horse is pretty close to the beginning of the Millennium; however, judgment comes WITH the King Apparent. I believe it starts when the signs in the sun, moon, and stars first appear. I cannot tell you exactly when He "touches down," but I CAN tell you that part of the job of a King is to act as a Supreme Court Judge! Furthermore, He will be taking vengeance on His enemies for His people's sakes! Therefore, the consequences of judgment are also His responsibility. All the air-raid sirens (trumpet judgments) and all the bowls of God's wrath being poured out are also His responsibility.

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

From this point on if I am understanding you correctly, is after the thousand years?  One other thing I am curious about is your closing statement, just for clarification purposes.  At the end of the millennium do you agree that God the Father is dwelling with us as well, as in when the New Jerusalem descends?

God bless

God, the Father of the Messiah Yeshua` and therefore also our Father, is OMNIPRESENT. He is PLEASED to dwell with us and has provided His "Bedouin tent," the New Jerusalem, for us, but we have NEVER been without His favor, once He has justified us through the blood of His Son.

There are two types of Scripture passages that we must rectify, and I assume that both are true. First, we have the prophecy given to us at the Annunication:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Second, we have a limited reign in Revelation 20:1-6 and in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

I believe the answer is quite simple: the passages of Revelation 20 and 1 Corinthians 15 are talking about Yeshua`s role as World Emperor. In that capacity, He will reign for only 1000 years, and He turns over the WORLD-WIDE EMPIRE to His Father.

However, He will continue to reign over the house of Jacob forever upon the throne of His ancestor, King David.

[n2thelight]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

21 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The Day of the Lord ends the tribulation,and starts the millennium,ie,the 7th day.

Shalom, gentlemen.

Actually the "Day of the Lord" IS the whole Millennium, with all the events that lead up to the Millennium. When the Messiah Yeshua`, the "Sun of righteousness," returns, He will give us a 1000-year Day!

Like I said,the 7th Day,which starts at the return of Christ.