Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[firestormx]

On 7/6/2017 at 0:00 AM, iamlamad said:

It is sad how many people simply don't understand Paul in 1 Thes. 5. He tells us the rapture comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord and as the trigger for it. But that does not fit your theories, so you ignore it.

 

 

 

Do you see Joel 2:31 as the same thing as Matthew 24:29-31 and the sixth seal? I ask because I do see them as the same thing and Joel 2:31 clearly and bluntly says this event must happen BEFORE the day of the Lord and Matthew 24:29-31 says this event happens before we are gathered to be with Jesus. Just trying to understand how you see these verses ( especially Joel 2:31 ) fitting into this statement above.

Edited July 7, 2017 by firestormx
Edited for Clarity

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sorry, Antiochus is not even a thought process in my mind, he is nothing and has nothing to do with any scriptures of importance. Again, you CONFUSE Daniel 8 with Antiochus. Thus we can't discuss this with any degree of proper back and forth because Daniel 8 is about the Anti-Christ. 

So what you are saying is that you will continue to propagate your doctrine that most commentator refutes.  And you will do it by pulling verses out of their context.  Most people understand this chapter is about Antiochus. Since you believe otherwise, your theories will be off. You wrote, " The Scriptures CAN NOT LIE....I use scriptures to back up my every point. " In this case, your backing is pulled out of context, so you deductions are off.

Readers, this is what happens when someone pulls verses OUT OF CONTEXT;

Gabriel Interprets the Vision

¹⁵ Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man.

¹⁸ Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. ¹⁹ And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. ²⁰ The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ And the male goat is the kingdom^[b] of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. ²² As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

²³ “And in the latter time of their kingdom,

In the latter part of their reign
At the end of their rule
And at the latter end of their kingdom
In the latter period of their rule
Near the end of their kingdoms,
Toward the end of their rule
And at the end of their empire

When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
²⁴ His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

WHAT is "their" kingdom? What must this pronoun refer back to? Easy: "Four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation [Alexander the Great's empire] So let's be specific:

The kingdom of Cassander, The kingdom of Lysimachus, The kingdom of Seleucus, and The kingdom of Ptolemy.

Let's make no mistake here: Daniel is speaking of the latter part of THESE FOUR kingdoms. So lets establish when each one ended.

The kingdom of Cassander:.......146 BC taken over by Rome.
The kingdom of Lysimachus:....281 Defeated by Seleucus and Thrace became part of the Seleucus dynasty.
The kingdom of Seleucus:..........63 BC
and The kingdom of Ptolemy. :.30 BC - overcome by Rome.

This is the CONTEXT. Therefore, anyone coming out of these kingdoms has to refer to someone BEFORE 30 BC.

On verses 23:

Pulpit Commentary: Antiochus

Gills commentary: And in the latter time of their kingdom,.... Toward the close of the kingdom of the four kings that divided Alexander's kingdom; for though they were four distinct kings, and had four separate kingdoms, yet these all belonged to one kingdom or monarchy, the Grecian empire; and when that was decreasing, and coming into the hands of the Romans, there rose up, stood, and flourished awhile, King Antiochus, afterwards described, who began to reign in the hundred and thirty seventh year of the Seleucidae,

Geneva Study Bible:  (h) Noting that this Antiochus was impudent and cruel, and also crafty so that he could not be deceived.

John Wesley notes:  In the latter time - When they were come to the height, and beginning to decline. When the transgressors - When the Jews were grown to an excess of wickedness, then God suffered Antiochus to persecute them. Dark sentences - Full of subtilty: such all histories declare Antiochus to be.

Note for readers: One Commentator said this was about the Antichrist. One said it was about both Antiochus and the Antichrist.

My point is, if we leave this in context, which is the 4 divisions of Alexander the great, all four dynasties disappeared and was swallowed up by Rome.  There is not one translation I could find that varied: all said THEIR kingdom, referring to the four from Alexander.

Therefore, to use any verses from this chapter to prove something about the Antichrist is simply not good exegesis.

Many people see Antiochus as a TYPE of the Antichrist. I agree. The coming Antichrist will repeat many of the things Antiochus did.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

On 7/6/2017 at 11:18 AM, iamlamad said:

STOP! Just stop and think what you just wrote: you KNOW that God is not mad at believers and CAUSING them to be martyrs! How silly would that be - that God Himself is creating martyrs.  God is not angry with His church. Seal one is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel: and that is God's will. Seals 2-4 will be Satan's attempts to stop the church. If people die, it will be SATAN's anger, not God's. The seals, 1-5 are church history. We are waiting on seal 6 which begins God's wrath.

God is not creating anything, the Disciples all died for Jesus name, did God create that or Satan? The Church is LONG GONE, and in Heaven, the Martyrs are a TESTIMONY against this evil world and Satan. Thus Jesus opens the 5th Seal where the Martyrs ARE already dead, they died via the Four Seals or the Anti-Christ coming forth. They could have escaped this event had they been ready when the Bridegroom (Jesus) came but they were one of the 5 Foolish Virgins, and they tarried until it was too late. So id anyone missed the Rapture and then decided to become  Christian later, God could never allow the Anti-Christ to come forth as long as there was a few Christians on earth, that is not how God works. The 5 Foolish Virgins will have to miss the Marriage of the Lamb and the Bride in Heaven. The will become Martyrs.

All the Seals are the Wrath of the Lamb. He opens them up.

You did not stop and you did not even think: You think you know, when in fact you don't: so you just repeat and repeat what is fantasy.

It is very simple: if the seals are God's wrath, then it is God's wrath making live Christians into dead Christians. That is just silly. There simply is NO WRATH OF GOD in sending the church out to spread the gospel: seal 1. There has been no wrath of God upon the earth during the church age: seals 2, 3 and 4. Those are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the gospel. You did notice, they come AFTER the Church is sent out in seal 1?  I hope you noticed, John did not get to the "Day of His wrath" until the 6th seal.

 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are OVERTHINKING AGAIN.....The book of Seals are only Judgement's that are SEALED UP.

Actually the Writer but no chapters and verses on them. Nor were any book of the Bible wrote with chapters and verses in them, that was added some 500 years ago. It seems confused for you, its not for me, I understand what goes where and why. 

No, the seals are not judgments. They are seals sealing a document. A document which cannot be opened and read until all the seals are opened. However, there are events that each seal is to represent.  I am not confused. You only think you know. Anyone can pull verses out of context and make them say anything. You are doing a good job of that. It is not wise. 

John saw this vision around 95 AD. You imagine God jumps from there to our future, when the truth is, God covers the entire church age.

Let's read this again; Perhaps you can get it this time: Ask yourself, WHAT TIME IS IT?

Rev. 5: the CONTEXT of the seals:

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. (What happened between this time and the search John watched that ended in failure? In other words, what caused Jesus to suddenly be found worthy, when He was NOT found worthy before? The answer, I believe is this: He just rose from the dead, and as soon as He conquered death, He was found worthy. What time was it when He rose? Maybe 32 AD?)

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (WHERE is this Lamb? He just arrived in the throne room. Where was He before this? He was buried, but His spirit went UNDER the ground. Then He rose from the dead, was found worthy, saw Mary, then ascended, and John saw that very moment in time in this vision. WHAT TIME IS IT? Around 32 or 33 AD.

Notice also that the Holy Spirit was then immediately sent down. WHAT TIME WAS THAT? It was the day of Pentecost.  So this is the CONTEST of seal #1. John has sown is the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven. You can believe this as written or doubt it: it makes no difference to me. I write for the readers.  So the time of verse 6 is around 32 AD. Now, read carefully: can you find 2000 years in these verses?

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

No 2000 years between these two verses: Jesus got the book into His hands around 32 AD.

I won't waste space with the remaining verses: but I can assure you, there is no 2000 years there. God did not put it there, because the first seal is to represent something from 32 AD: the CHURCH.

We all know the scriptures were not written with chapters. But SOMEONE added them. And just as I said, they added chapter 18 after chapter 17 because that chapter followed the other in the Greek manuscripts.  We all know this. My point was, John wrote it in this order and you have no right to change it. It is silly to change it because it makes perfect linear sense as written.  The events of chapters 17 and 18 will FOLLOW in time what will happen in chapter 16.

[Pudgenik]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 8:42 AM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but it will be yours proven false!  God is pretrib. So will the rapture be. By the way, "falling away" is really a bad translation. Several earlier translations were a significant DEPARTING which will be the Bride of Christ "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed.

Question: in 2 Thes. 2:3 part b, is the man of sin revealed then in Paul's argument or not?

But what if you missed something , what if you are wrong. Are you prepared for the alternative

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 6 is called the Lambs Wrath, nowhere does it say that is where his wrath begins, it says that is when the men understand its the Wrath of the Lamb. BIG DIFFERENCE. The Seals are the Wrath of the Lamb. Jesus is RELEASING THE SEALS by opening them. The Day of the Lord starts with the release of the First Seal. 

You are making assumptions that are just not there. You cannot assume God's wrath is PREVIOUS to this statement. To do so would be to say God CAUSED by His wrath, the death of the martyrs. Sorry, my friend, but God LOVED those martyrs. He had no anger whatsoever against any of them.  Neither can you find any trace of anger at the first seal. In fact, you cannot find even ONE WORD there that would give a hint of God's wrath or any kind of evil.  The very fact that john and the Holy Spirit used the color white should convince you that this horse and horseman are not evil. John used white 17 other times: each time to represent righteous. It is simply silly to even imagine that in this one instance out of 18 the Holy Spirit would use white for evil.

We can know this is where His wrath begins, because it is simply not mentioned before this.

You are completely mistaken, reading into the text what is not there: the Day of the Lord, and the Day of His wrath are THE SAME THING! You have nothing but imagination to think the DAY begins when the church is sent out at the first seal, in 32 AD. How could anyone imagine this? Oh! by pulling verses out of their context. I get it.  John tells us "the day of His wrath has come" indicating to the reader that His wrath JUST STARTED. If it just has come, then it was not before.

"it says that is when the men understand its the Wrath of the Lamb."

I agree.  But WHAT did these men just see? You seem to be doing just a casual reading: WHY did they say this? They just saw the signs prophesied by Joel and Isaiah TELLING THEM The day had just started. Then, If you study the first trumpet judgments and compare them with the Old Testament scriptures about THE DAY, you would then KNOW the Day started right then. First the signs, then the event, and then PROOF of the event.

Edited July 7, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, Pudgenik said:

But what if you missed something , what if you are wrong. Are you prepared for the alternative

God's word is never wrong. Go and study 1 Thes. 5. Paul tells us the time.

[Pudgenik]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

God's word is never wrong. Go and study 1 Thes. 5. Paul tells us the time.

Did i say God's Word was wrong, nope. Only your interpretation  of it

[iamlamad]

Just now, Pudgenik said:

Did i say God's Word was wrong, nope. Only your interpretation  of it

If you wish to be left behind and face the Beast, that is up to you. Perhaps God will allow it.

But I tell you the truth: God has set no appointments for me with His wrath. I am not going to be here.

[Daniel 11:36]

.... and neither am I [1 Corinthians 15:51-38; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]