How do you Identify Wolves in Sheep's Clothing?

[AlexDofTX]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

If by "wild" you mean led by the Spirit.....which blows where HE wills and not the will of man.......then I agree brother.

Correct.  I mean that followers of Christ are wild in contrast to those who conform to the world system because they care not for the world system and are willing to go against the system. Sadly, too many Christians who conform to the world regard the wild followers of Christ as rebels in the negative sense.  Yet we are rebels in the positive sense in that we throw off the yoke of tyranny.

[AlexDofTX]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

Erk........maybe this needs a little clarifying.....?  I'm so grateful that Jesus bore my shame on the cross.  When I was an unwed mother, I remember being so thankful to be called a "single mother" and not demeaning names, because it allowed me to keep enough dignity and self-worth to be able to carry on.....life could have really spiralled down otherwise as it most always did for unwed mothers in earlier days because of the self-righteousness of society.  I already was a little bit agoraphobic during my pregnancy because of shame of going out in public in that condition and not having a husband.  The only one who called my boy a bastard was his stepfather later on who ground into the dirt what little was left of his soul after others had helped themselves to him.  Dear God it has made the road back longer and more difficult for him.  Time after time the Lord has been so kind to my son........and to me.........a trail of pebbles of kindnesses leading back to Him.  His kindness leads to repentance.  The term bastard in the bible is to teach us a spiritual truth........a bastard was a child who would not inherit, having been "born" of spiritual adultery and spiritual fornication with idols.  In the natural realm illegitimate children were typically born of incest or to concubines and female slaves who usually didn't have a say in the matter......in pagan societies they were often put out to die of dehydration and exposure as soon as they were born....but that is not the heart of God is it.   It is a precious thing and departure from the world of that time how Jesus was so gracious to the woman at the well who had 5 husbands, He didn't shame her or demean or call her any names......and she became a vessel proclaiming the gospel and bringing others to Christ. 

I understand your point of view. However, these thoughts come to my mind.  In the historical past when shame was  publicly endorsed by using such terms as bastards or perverts, few indulged in the activities that created illegitimate children or perversion.  Of course, some people still did. Children were still born out of wedlock and homosexuals still engaged in their perversions, but the number of them was quite small.  Today, now that shame has been politely covered with euphemisms  and these activities are openly endorsed, the number who engage in such activities is exponential.  If you lived in the era when it was disgraceful to have children out of wedlock you may not have had your child.  Shame is important in a society that wants to live righteously to prevent shameful acts from happening in the first place.

That being said, I also realize two other points.   You admitted to feeling shame anyway and were glad it was not compounded by others  calling it disgraceful by using such terms.  I also experienced that, too.  When I was 12 I committed incest with my sister.  I was raised in an atheist family that was sexually immoral and encouraged sexual immorality.  Nonetheless, my divorced father came to our home to visit and caught me in the act with my sister.  I was totally mortified that I was caught.   He tried to encourage me by telling me that when he was a youth he committed incest with his sister and that it was alright.  But his words  did not dissuade my shame.  [I admit, I was a pervert.  Not only with incest, but as a fornicator, but now I am a new creature in Christ, and those old things have passed away] The truth is, that experience was an element in my believing in Christ when I was born again at the age of 32.   Right and wrong is in the heart, regardless of what people say.

My point in telling this story regards a Christian perspective.  Once the deed is done shaming people is useless.  They already know what they did was wrong.  Helping them after the fact in getting their lives together and loving people and accepting them is the way of Christ.  We should also remember that God loves people and wants children born.  He wants them born in committed marriages because that will give the children the better upbringing, but he wants them born, nonetheless.  So you child is precious in His eyes and He loves him or her dearly.  And, as I said before,  right and wrong are in everyone's heart.  Your child knows he or she is a bastard, or will know simply in the course of growing up.  So there is no need to increase condemnation.

Finally, this last thought comes to my mind.  Depending on how it is said, it is possible you may have come to Christ (if you were not a Christian at the time) sooner if people had not disguised the situation with euphemisms, but matter of factly stated the child is a bastard.  What I mean is that many do not come to Christ until they hit rock bottom, and that might have been a catalyst to throw you to rock bottom sooner driving you to cry out to the Lord sooner.  It could also make you more defensive if condemnation was laid on you instead.  It could make you hunker down and say "to heck with God, I will live as I please."

I do not write to say these happen every time, but history supports what I am saying.

Edited August 24, 2017 by AlexDofTX
further explanation

[Heleadethme]

I think there is a difference between preaching in a general sense and how we talk to people personally one to one.  However, the word bastard means illegitimate child or child born out of wedlock by definition, so there is nothing wrong or inaccurate in just saying the meaning of the word.  And today the word "bastard" is considered foul language, so I don't think we bring credit to the gospel to use it.....nor any need to since we can easily use other words to convey the same meaning.  Apart from reading or quoting the bible directly........in which case the word bastard is only used twice in the entire bible and plural form only once......and in all instances it is used to convey spiritual truth, not to condemn children.  Society condemning unmarried mothers and making outcasts of their children was both hypocritical as well as self-righteous, and that is not the gospel.  I see it kind of like the police and earthly government's job is to catch and arrest wrong doers and punish them.........but that is not the job of followers of Christ to punish and condemn the lost any more than it is for us to go to war and kill our enemies....which is the job of earthly authorities as well.  The Lord sent people to punish Israel in her waywardness too......but woe to them afterwards, God then punished them for punishing Israel.  I don't believe that is the role of the Christian.

[AlexDofTX]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

I think there is a difference between preaching in a general sense and how we talk to people personally one to one.  However, the word bastard means illegitimate child or child born out of wedlock by definition, so there is nothing wrong or inaccurate in just saying the meaning of the word.  And today the word "bastard" is considered foul language, so I don't think we bring credit to the gospel to use it.....nor any need to since we can easily use other words to convey the same meaning.  Apart from reading or quoting the bible directly........in which case the word bastard is only used twice in the entire bible and plural form only once......and in all instances it is used to convey spiritual truth, not to condemn children.  Society condemning unmarried mothers and making outcasts of their children was both hypocritical as well as self-righteous, and that is not the gospel.  I see it kind of like the police and earthly government's job is to catch and arrest wrong doers and punish them.........but that is not the job of followers of Christ to punish and condemn the lost any more than it is for us to go to war and kill our enemies....which is the job of earthly authorities as well.  The Lord sent people to punish Israel in her waywardness too......but woe to them afterwards, God then punished them for punishing Israel.  I don't believe that is the role of the Christian.

We are looking at two sides of a coin.  Sin always brings its own condemnation.  Once the sin occurs, it is not the place of Christians to condemn, but to restore. We are in agreement.  However, we are called to be salt and light.  This is the other side of the coin I was addressing.  We are to stand up for what is right and to declare what is wrong.  The church is not salt and light anymore because many do not stand up and declare what is right and wrong anymore.  When the church is salt and light, sin is prevented.  That is what I was saying.

Those two uses of the word "bastard" in the Bible do not have spiritual meaning first, they have material meaning first.  Without the material meaning, the spiritual meaning is lost.  To say in Deut. 23:2 that "a bastard shall not enter the congregation of the Lord" can not be understood spiritually in the sense that you have to be in covenant with God, if there was no understanding that a child born out of wedlock did not have the covenant of marriage first.  And, as an expression of foul language it is only foul because it is still remembered that children born of fornication are children born of sin. This is why the Pharisees accused Jesus of being an illegitimate child and could not believe he was the Messiah.

Political correctness is not new.  It has influenced the church for centuries even though the term is new.  Euphemisms have been used for centuries which cause the language to change in meaning.  Euphemisms have a place, of course.  We don't want to rob children of their innocence by saying things to directly when it is something that they do not need to know until adulthood.  But in general, euphemisms are used to cover sin so as not to remind people of the shame that goes with sin.

I told you of my own perversion.  It is a shame to me that I had done such things, and when I became a Christian I apologized to my sister for my behavior.  But I have no shame now, because I walk in the light and have been transformed.  Every sin carries consequences and as a new believer I had many years of undoing those consequences in my life.  Specifically, fornication trains men to view women as objects, not people.  It took the Lord a long time working with me to get my mind in the right frame.  Your child is still your child and is the love of your life.  That should never be taken from you, but the consequences of its birth still has to be worked out by the Lord, your child and you.  If your child is a believer then such a thing becomes a part of the past and someday will be forgotten.

Words matter.  Jesus said we will be judged by every idle word that comes out of our mouths.  Words have positive and negative impacts.  What seems negative in the moment may actually be positive in the long run, and what seems positive in the moment may actually be negative in the long run.  The enemy of our souls knows this better than we do, which is why political correctness seems right in the moment, but is deadly in the long run.  We should be the masters of the words, not the enemy.

Edited August 24, 2017 by AlexDofTX
grammatical corrections

[AlexDofTX]

3 hours ago, AlexDofTX said:

I struggle with this myself.  On the one hand I know that the spiritual law of sowing and reaping is true. but I am still unclear on how this is true.  I don't clearly see how giving money to large ministries pertains to sowing and reaping.  In my own experience I have seen it work when I give to individuals.   And at a later time those individuals have given back to me, or God will use some other individuals to give back to me when I have the need.   Years ago the Lord showed me the meaning of Ecclesiastes 11:3 "where the tree falls there it shall be".  It means the people that you minister to are the ones with the gratitude to give you aid in your time of need.

On the other hand, Deuteronomy tells us that God gives us the power to get wealth. This  does not relate to the way the church describes sowing and reaping.  This means hard work. In the literal sense, sowing meant plowing a field, laying down fertilizer, sowing seeds, watering the seeds, fighting off insects and diseases that can damage the crop, then ultimately harvesting the crop, preserving or selling the crop.   This hard work is the real meaning of sowing and reaping and it is in this sense Deuteronomy means that he gives us the power to get wealth.  God will give us ideas for businesses and we have to do the labor to make it come to pass.  We sow into a business by doing our homework on what it takes, by saving money to buy the things needed, by taking the time to market the idea, by keeping the records on the growth of the business, etc. 

Sowing and reaping as it is sold to the Church is more like a magic fairy tale than a biblical principal.

At work I was talking to a co-worker on this topic, and a realization came to me.  Tithing to a church is not sowing and reaping. Paul said,

1Co_9:11  If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

In other words, since they had ministered spiritual things to them, they should reap material wealth from them.  When a congregation tithes to the paid staff, they are not sowing, they are the harvest of the staff.   Now the staff may take that money and sow it into other ministries or needs, but it is not the congregation that is sowing, it is the staff that is sowing.  

We may think that because we labored to earn the money, that we are sowing, too, when they reap us as their harvest, but I don't think that is the case. This conversation with my co-worker was about a fellow employee who has lived in near poverty her whole life, yet she has faithful tithed to the various congregations she has attended.   That is when the thought came to me that she has never sown in that way, because she is the harvest being reaped. 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Quote

A lot of believers hear condemning thoughts, and some believers even think it's God telling them these things. My friend, nothing could be further from the truth! God NEVER tells you what a loser you are. Jesus said He came not to condemn the world, but to save it (John 12:47)!

What is condemnation?

Condemnation comes from Satan and is meant to tear you down. Condemnation continually points out what a failure you are, and how badly you've messed up. Condemnation is showing you the problem, but avoiding the solution.

Jesus did NOT come to condemn the world (John 12:47). There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Satan on the other hand is KNOWN for accusing the brethren (Rev 12:10).

Why won't you ever hear God telling you what a failure you are? Because Jesus said, "I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." (John 12:47)

What is conviction?

Conviction is known in the Bible as Godly sorrow. God's Word tells us that Godly sorrow is what leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). Condemnation tells you, "You are such a failure! Look at what you did!" while conviction tells you, "Come to me... and I will forgive you!"

Not only is God willing to forgive your sins, but He longs (deeply desires) to do so! Isaiah 30:18, "Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him." (NASB)

1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."

Romans 2:4, "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

Conviction shows you the answer to your problem. Conviction shows you the blood of Jesus that wipes away your sins!

What is the difference?

Conviction shows you the answer (the Blood of Jesus, which washes away sin), while condemnation shows you the problem (the sin, the past and your failures). Condemnation shows you the problem, but conviction shows you the answer.

Condemnation shouts, "Your past! Your sins! You loser!" But conviction shouts, "The Blood of Jesus washes away sins! Come to Jesus and be forgiven of your sins! You can be forgiven! Your sins and past don't have to be a part of you anymore!"

Understanding the nature of God's forgiveness

It's so important to understand the nature of God's forgiveness and His desire to wash us clean from our pasts. The Forgiveness of Sins is a great teaching that will show you the nature of God's forgiveness.

Source: Condemnation Versus Conviction

[existential mabel]

On 8/22/2017 at 10:35 PM, other one said:

How to check for wolves in sheep clothing.....   zippers,  it's all in the  zippers

 

ah ha is that with the zipper up or down.. zip.. cough

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, AlexDofTX said:

We are looking at two sides of a coin.  Sin always brings its own condemnation.  Once the sin occurs, it is not the place of Christians to condemn, but to restore. We are in agreement.  However, we are called to be salt and light.  This is the other side of the coin I was addressing.  We are to stand up for what is right and to declare what is wrong.  The church is not salt and light anymore because many do not stand up and declare what is right and wrong anymore.  When the church is salt and light, sin is prevented.  That is what I was saying.

Those two uses of the word "bastard" in the Bible do not have spiritual meaning first, they have material meaning first.  Without the material meaning, the spiritual meaning is lost.  To say in Deut. 23:2 that "a bastard shall not enter the congregation of the Lord" can not be understood spiritually in the sense that you have to be in covenant with God, if there was no understanding that a child born out of wedlock did not have the covenant of marriage first.  And, as an expression of foul language it is only foul because it is still remembered that children born of fornication are children born of sin. This is why the Pharisees accused Jesus of being an illegitimate child and could not believe he was the Messiah.

Political correctness is not new.  It has influenced the church for centuries even though the term is new.  Euphemisms have been used for centuries which cause the language to change in meaning.  Euphemisms have a place, of course.  We don't want to rob children of their innocence by saying things to directly when it is something that they do not need to know until adulthood.  But in general, euphemisms are used to cover sin so as not to remind people of the shame that goes with sin.

I told you of my own perversion.  It is a shame to me that I had done such things, and when I became a Christian I apologized to my sister for my behavior.  But I have no shame now, because I walk in the light and have been transformed.  Every sin carries consequences and as a new believer I had many years of undoing those consequences in my life.  Specifically, fornication trains men to view women as objects, not people.  It took the Lord a long time working with me to get my mind in the right frame.  Your child is still your child and is the love of your life.  That should never be taken from you, but the consequences of its birth still has to be worked out by the Lord, your child and you.  If your child is a believer then such a thing becomes a part of the past and someday will be forgotten.

Words matter.  Jesus said we will be judged by every idle word that comes out of our mouths.  Words have positive and negative impacts.  What seems negative in the moment may actually be positive in the long run, and what seems positive in the moment may actually be negative in the long run.  The enemy of our souls knows this better than we do, which is why political correctness seems right in the moment, but is deadly in the long run.  We should be the masters of the words, not the enemy.

I sure do agree in principle about political correctness and that sin needs to be preached and taught and called what it is....sin.  Just trying to clarify what is being meant here in practice.........for example Jesus was kind and gentle to the woman at the well even while addressing her sin.  He left her with her dignity and worth intact.......He didn't call her a bad name.......unlike how she would have been treated by the "righteous" religious people of her day.  I hope you believe we should go and  do likewise as Jesus did......our righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisees.  Children conceived through the sin of their parents should not be labelled by the church and considered somehow sub-standard as human beings.  I have a hunch you would be kind in practice, and that you would agree preaching and teaching the flock is a bit different than how one approaches lost souls who don't know the Lord.....?

[AlexDofTX]

17 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

I sure do agree in principle about political correctness and that sin needs to be preached and taught and called what it is....sin.  Just trying to clarify what is being meant here in practice.........for example Jesus was kind and gentle to the woman at the well even while addressing her sin.  He left her with her dignity and worth intact.......He didn't call her a bad name.......unlike how she would have been treated by the "righteous" religious people of her day.  I hope you believe we should go and  do likewise as Jesus did......our righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisees.  Children conceived through the sin of their parents should not be labelled by the church and considered somehow sub-standard as human beings.  I have a hunch you would be kind in practice, and that you would agree preaching and teaching the flock is a bit different than how one approaches lost souls who don't know the Lord.....?

In general I am talking about a societal standard where everyone knows already because it is taught at home, schools, and in churches.  Speaking to individuals depends on the individual and the circumstance as led by the Spirit.   On another forum I was banned, then later reinstated, because a man in an advise thread admitted that he had a 10 year relation with a woman he did not marry and sired 5 children, then married a woman for 3 years and divorced her after siring two more children, and was currently living with another woman.  The man claimed to a be Christian (Catholic).  I was stunned by his absolute irresponsibility and made one statement, "Wow, you sired 5 bastards."  He was infuriated and reported me.  The forum already leans towards political correctness and warned me.  As I explained to the moderators I felt the statement was valid because it was true.  They argued that while it was true I could have said "illegitimate" instead of "bastard" which has a insulting connotation.  I believed that man needed a shock to wake him up to his dismal lifestyle and lack of Christian behavior. They banned me for arguing with the moderators.  They later relented and invited me back.  I still use their site, but am careful about the water I walk on. At this site, so far, it seems both the members and the moderators stand for Christ and the Bible and do not bow the knee to political correctness.  That is solid footing to walk on, whereas the other site is more watery and I have to be careful where I tread.

But you are right, Heleadethme.  On a one on one basis, I usually want to edify, not condemn because that is the way of Christ.  That example I just gave is the exception not the rule. That man had a hard heart and was totally unaware of the great damage he has done to the mother, the children and his last wife.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 8/20/2017 at 0:10 PM, AlexDofTX said:

Jesus warned us to watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing.  Clearly this means identifying people who claim to be Christians but inwardly are ravening wolves. So are there any New Testament examples of people who were exposed as wolves in sheep's clothing? Some come to my mind, but I don't know if they fit the description.

Paul warns us, too.  He says that in the last days perilous times shall come.   Do we all agree that we are in the last days?  Isn't this important to recognize.

2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They have a form of godliness, but deny the power of God... ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul said,

1Ti 1:19  Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. 

Would you consider them wolves in sheep's clothing or just backsliders?

Paul said that Demas had forsaken him, having loved this present world and departed for Thessalonica (2 Tim. 4:10).  Would that be a wolf, or simply a backslider?

What about the people that joined in the agape feasts that Jude refers to?

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Those are harsh words regarding people who are calling themselves Christians to be in their fellowship.

This is spiritual discernment and I  believe every serious follower of Christ should have it. So help understand what clues will demonstrate a wolf in sheep's clothing. Your feed back is greatly appreciated.

 

God is good, God is love, if you have love, you have God in you, or if you are good, you identify with God, and sure God wants to have the good people. 

" You don't need Jesus, what you need is to be good and abide in love, sure God would like to have those who are good, because they are one in Goodness and Love, we don't need Jesus. 

The devil will tell people love God with all your heart, and your neibours as your self, be good and moral and hate sin. 

And God will love you, karma, and good will come to you, and at time of death he will love to have to be with him forever. 

That's all you need, you don't need Jesus Christ. 

Just believe in God, you are not an atheist you believe in God, you are ok, you don't need Jesus. 

They are many ways to God, through love, and goodness , and moral living, no need for JESUS. 

This is the message of a wolf in sheep's clothing. 

He is telling people to be good and abide in love, that's how they can indedifie with God, in Goodness and love. No need for JESUS CHRIST. 

Or if they are Believers he still makes them focus in their goodness and love your neighbor as yourself, and distance them from their Redeemer, perhaps at the end, he can make them doubt about him, or talk about him, or forget about him, and maybe stop believing, then the devil can have them, the devil loves to have good people who love God, but they don't believe in Jesus Christ, the devil loves Holy People, who do not believe in Jesus Christ, anything that can keep someone from believing in Jesus Christ. 

Even heal, and prosper People to deceive them, that they don't need Jesus Christ. 

Believers stay away from divotions, to statutes, to Spiritual powers who are working in the sadow of the statue mostly the baby Jesus, the black nazarene, the Fatima, and all the Ladies of those groups, and the Lady of Gouadalup and so on. 

The Holy Spirit is not there, seek instant the Holy Spirit, that's what Jesus gaves us. 

I have more, but leave it from now.