2 Thessalonians 2:6-7

[Diaste]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:58 PM, OldCoot said:

Of course it has been promoted by books and hundreds of authors for the last 150 years, mass publication on a substantial scale and the internet was not available prior to that.  But that doesn't mean the idea didn't have any support before that.  Isaac Newton, who wrote a lot of commentary on scripture, held the view 100 years before John Darby was born. Ephraim the Syrian, of the Eastern Orthodox church, we have a sermon of his where he unequivocally promoted a pre-trib removal of the righteous.  And that was roughly the 3rd century.  The Pre-trib position is hardly new.  Now, that doesn't make it correct, but it has some validity as an argument.  It can hardly be equated to a lie.

In the overall scheme of things, I would be willing to bet that EVERYONE has some aspect of how these things will play out, wrong.  None of us wrote the Bible or inspired it.

But as for the 150 years you mention, 150 years before Cyrus conquered Babylon in roughly 538 BC, Isaiah wrote about a removal of the righteous before the cataclysmic events of the last days, which included both the righteous dead (resurrected) and the righteous living being hidden from those events, as per Isaiah 26.  Zephaniah 2 and Psalm 27 support that.  Many of the prophets wrote that this would happen at the start of the birth pains, which Jeremiah specifically says the birth pains are the Time of Jacob's Trouble, which is seen as the Great Tribulation period Israel will be saved out of.   Isaiah 66 and Jeremiah 30 speak of this.

Even in Revelation 12, the woman (Israel) gives birth to the male child, which is immediately and forcibly caught up (harpazo) to the throne of God.  Some argue that this is the Messiah, but Yeshua was never forcibly caught up to God's throne either at His birth or at His ascension.  It would seem to be the body of Messiah, the ekklesia, which was conceived in Jerusalem at Pentacost by the Holy Spirit.   But this child rules with a rod of iron and that can only be the Messiah Himself, right?  Wrong.  Revelation 2:26-27 says that all believers who overcome will rule with a rod of iron with Messiah.   So Revelation 12 could indeed be speaking of the body of Messiah.   Yeshua is the head, the believers are the body.  And this passage has allusions to the birth pains mentioned in the Tanakh passages above.

So the concept of a removal of the righteous before the Tribulation period has some support in scripture.   Paul commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures daily to see if what Paul taught them was true.  All they had was the Tanakh, or more commonly known as the Old Testament.  The prophecy regarding the end times in the Tanakh eclipses the totality of end time prophecy in the NT in both amount of words and detail.  For instance, Ezekiel outlines events that one could show from the latest government Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical warfare manuals regarding cleanup and disposal procedures after a nuclear event.   No NT passage goes into that kind of detail.  Likewise, Zechariah 14 shows in detail what could be described as what happens to a human body when a NBC event occurs.

Scripture points out that no issue can be determined without the testimony of 2 or more witnesses.  We have those, the Tanakh (OT) and the NT.  And both show support for a removal of the righteous early in the end times scenario.  Conclusively beyond any shadow of a doubt?  Maybe not. But the support for the contention is there.

 

And of course you begin by out of context quotes. It doesn't matter if 10,000 books by a thousand authors were published on the subject they would all be erroneous. And the fact that a person can argue a point does not make the point, nor the arguments, valid. At best the arguments are illogical and subjective and mainly born of the need to be contrary if they are not based on factual data. In the case of pretib it's an agenda of the enemy, a doctrine of devils; and since the best you can do to defend the idea is to call it an argument with some validity, means it's far from the reality. This is true because pretib ideas are based on supposition, illogic and specious reasoning, not the facts.

It's no doubt that none of us have all the truth. The fallible cannot be infallible. Even though we did not write nor inspire the scriptures, this in no way removes the ability to understand those same scriptures through diligence, hard work and prayer. In fact, this is the formula given by God to reach wisdom and understanding of His Word.

It's true the OT prophets wrote extensively about the end of the age. In fact I can see the end of the age mentioned in Genesis. While I agree with you in principle in the detail of the writings of the OT prophets and see the same things you do in those details we cannot favor the OT prophets over THE prophet and the one who inspired those prophets, Jesus Christ. Matt 24 sorts out, in a perfect outline the chronology of events of the last week. Any timeline that disputes Jesus own words, under direct questioning of the disciples concerning the end of the age, is incorrect. Jesus own words place the only gathering of the elect mentioned by the One True God as occurring after great tribulation and before the wrath of God, well into the second half of the week. All other end of the age scripture,both OT and NT,  must be understood in light of the Words of Almighty God in Matt 24.

Everyone author, blogger, apologist, acolyte and follower of pretrib I have either read or heard purposely ignore Matt 24. And why? It's THE authority on the outline and timing of the last week, even referencing Daniel as support. I suspect it's because Matt 24, and Jesus himself, refutes the claims of pretrib. This is deliberate planning. I even heard a pretrib apologist on this site refer to Matt 24 as 'unimportant'. 

Pretrib is a lie. You'll see soon enough.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 10/19/2017 at 9:34 AM, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-7

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

The apostasy is in reference to the church and this is how the restrainer (the church) is removed (Not the rapture). Without the bulk of the church on Earth evil will become unrestrained and anti-Christ will be revealed. In Paul's day Nero was the one who was being restrained (a type of anti-Christ), this was what he meant by the mystery of lawlessness already at work. 

Apparently from the context 'what' restrains is the apostasy and the revealing of the beast; and the 'him' that is restrained is the coming of Jesus. If the church restrained evil then why is so much evil alive and well on earth today? I have never thought that argument made much sense.

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Your quote from above: "But not everyone is correct, obviously.  That doesn't mean those that are wrong are lying." Not everyone is correct but that doesn't mean they are wrong??? If they ain't correct they ain't right!! This is a diplomatic, political, fence riding position.

You obviously need another course in english reading comprehension.  Will try to get it across again.... Not everyone is correct, some folks do have some or all aspects of the issue in error.  But, Just because someone is wrong or in error, doesn't mean they are lying, or maliciously trying to deceive someone.  

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I might indeed be in violation of the 9th commandment if I was bearing false witness. An example of false witness is when someone says they did something they did not do.

Exactly!  You do not have the foundation to say they did something, though they may be in error.  Bearing false witness is making accusations about someone that is not true.  Just because you feel someone is in error, you have no foundation to make the accusation they are lying, which I repeat, lying is an act of maliciously trying to deceive.  It is an act of willful intent by a person knowing full well what they are saying is not true and they are trying to obfuscate the truth from others.   To accuse someone of such a thing without knowing the motivation of their heart, and proclaiming it to others, by default is bearing false witness.  And that is indeed lying on the part of the accuser.  And that is what slander and libel is all about.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Everyone author, blogger, apologist, acolyte and follower of pretrib I have either read or heard purposely ignore Matt 24. And why?

Then you haven't read many.  Try Chuck Missler for one.   I downloaded some time ago a lecture he gave regarding the issue and he extensively covered Mat 24 and 25 along with Luke 21.    And he uses Daniel 9 extensively in his presentation.  Not like what he has said is in a vacuum.  There are numerous articles and videos of his presentations available for free around the net.  Not like he is some obscure expositor.  He is well known in the pre-millennial community.

Yes indeed, we will all see soon enough.  

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by OldCoot

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Apparently from the context 'what' restrains is the apostasy and the revealing of the beast; and the 'him' that is restrained is the coming of Jesus. If the church restrained evil then why is so much evil alive and well on earth today? I have never thought that argument made much sense.

Their is so much evil because Satan is the prince of this world but when Jesus returns it will finish. However, this evil will only get worse til Jesus returns. The tribulation must happen. 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Then you haven't read many.  Try Chuck Missler for one.   I downloaded some time ago a lecture he gave regarding the issue and he extensively covered Mat 24 and 25 along with Luke 21.    And he uses Daniel 9 extensively in his presentation.  Not like what he has said is in a vacuum.  There are numerous articles and videos of his presentations available for free around the net.  Not like he is some obscure expositor.  He is well known in the pre-millennial community.

Yes indeed, we will all see soon enough.  

 

I guarantee Missler ignores the timeline given by Jesus that says the gathering of elect comes when Jesus appears, well after great tribulation starts and some 6 years from the beginning of the last week. And I have read a great deal on the subject. ALL pretrib apologists ignore this timeline. They have to as it refutes the pretrib lie.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

The apostasy is in reference to the church and this is how the restrainer (the church) is removed (Not the rapture). Without the bulk of the church on Earth evil will become unrestrained and anti-Christ will be revealed. In Paul's day Nero was the one who was being restrained (a type of anti-Christ), this was what he meant by the mystery of lawlessness already at work. 

You said, "Without the bulk of the church on Earth evil will become unrestrained". Evil is unrestrained now. The church isn't stopping evil in any way. Witness ISIS. ISIS arose with the church on the earth. As I said before, it's not a good argument.

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You said, "Without the bulk of the church on Earth evil will become unrestrained". Evil is unrestrained now. The church isn't stopping evil in any way. Witness ISIS. ISIS arose with the church on the earth. As I said before, it's not a good argument.

Where there are true believers,  some of the works of the devil are destroyed,  and where they live, and what and where they pray for, the devil is hindered, at Yahweh's discretion (He decided long ago, and controls all things and works all things out for the good of those who Love Him, who are called according to His Purpose) .

Overall, over the whole world, the 'church' (visible group, not invisible body of Christ) has contributed to more evil than isis, and murdered the saints and innocent blameless men, women and children by the millions, for many centuries. (as it seem you are aware already).

Yes,  the devil , the prince of the power of the air,  is controlling mankind: called "sons of disobedience" in Ephesians 2,  (which we all once were btw).

[simplejeff]

16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I guarantee Missler ignores the timeline given by Jesus that says the gathering of elect comes when Jesus appears, well after great tribulation starts and some 6 years from the beginning of the last week. And I have read a great deal on the subject. ALL pretrib apologists ignore this timeline. They have to as it refutes the pretrib lie.

Yes, likewise, Corrie ten Boom,   decades ago,  clearly and Scripturally as God's messenger refuted the pretrib lie,  and came to the United States in person to many congregations to warn them, but not many listened (except for the 'feel good' part of "God's Love" she focused on ) .

Her testimony and warning is still available on youtube by simple searching (takes 0.13 seconds) ...

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

14 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You said, "Without the bulk of the church on Earth evil will become unrestrained". Evil is unrestrained now. The church isn't stopping evil in any way. Witness ISIS. ISIS arose with the church on the earth. As I said before, it's not a good argument.

You ain't see nothing yet. 

Matthew24:21

For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equalled again.

Most of the human race will be killed; 90+% easily.