Atonement

[Robert William]

Just now, Blueyedjewel said:

John 6:44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Amen, I would say the word draw means born again.

[Robert William]

2 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

That question has already been answered.  One does not possess that atonement until they accept Christ.  The dynamics of this are not difficult.  The atonement has to exist, in a theoretical sense for everyone, or Jesus only died for a select group of people.  Nowhere does the Bible say that.  "God so loved the world" puts paid to the way most people use the word "predestined."  God offered the atonement through Jesus, but it is also obvious that many people will refuse that gift and therefore, not receive the atonement.

Please show me where scripture teaches potential atonement.

[Robert William]

Free will is a myth. https://carm.org/what-is-free-will

 

[Robert William]

What is free will?

 

by Matt Slick

Free will is the ability to make choices without external coercion.  There are debates as to what extent this free will is to be understood as it relates to people.  There are two main views:  compatibilism and libertarianism.

The compatibilist view is the position that a person's freedom is restricted by his nature as is described in Scripture and that his free will is consistent with God's foreordination.   In other words, he can only choose what his nature (sinful or regenerate) will allow him to choose.  Therefore, such verses as 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20 are used to demonstrate that, for example, the unbeliever is incapable of choosing God of his own free will since they say that the unbeliever cannot receive spiritual things, does no good, and is a slave to sin.

Libertarian free will says that the person's will is not restricted by his sinful nature and that he is still able to choose or accept God freely.  Verses used to support this view are John 3:16 and 3:36.  Two subdivisions of libertarian free will would be "open absolute free will" which says that man's choices are not knowable by God until they occur and "non-open absolute free will" which would state that God can know man's choices but he cannot determine them.

The biblical position is compatibilism.  Since the Bible clearly teaches us that the unbeliever is restricted to making sinful choices (1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20), then we must conclude that anyone who believes in God (John 3:16; 3:36) does so because God has granted that he believe (Phil. 1:29), has caused him to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), and chosen him for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13).

All the cults and false religious systems teach the libertarian view of free will that salvation and spiritual understanding are completely within the grasp of sinners (in spite of their enslavement to and deadness in sin).  For them, salvation would be totally up to the ability of the individual to make such a choice.

1. Man Apart from God
   1. Jer. 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
   2. Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
   3. Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."
2. Verses related to free will choices of sinners
   1. John 1:13, "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
   2. Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
      1. "the man" is singular
   3. Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
   4. 1 Cor. 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
   5. Phil. 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

[frienduff thaylorde]

8 minutes ago, Robert William said:

OK, so you say He Atoned ONLY for those who will believe, I agree, but who will or can believe??

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I am whiffing calvin too miss muffet.      The spirit reaches out , many REJECT IT .  

come now Roberto.   where is this really leading too.   GET THE GOSPLE OUT TO EVERYTHING , make it a HIGH MISSION , its LIFE for all who reicieve it.

 

[Robert William]

On 9/12/2017 at 4:49 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

No, I will not.  I've been reading the Bible for over 50 years and the only doctrinal change I have ever made is where I stand on tongues.  Free will is not a myth.  It cannot be a myth for the atonement to work at all.  If you are a hard core predestination believer, let me ask you this.  Would you be as hard-core on this issue if you knew you were not predestined?  I've never heard anyone teach this doctrine that did not think they were predestined.  Would it be an attractive doctrine if you knew you were not one of the lucky ones to be given the atonement ahead of time in the form of some kind of cosmic lottery?

God is not obligated to save anybody neither does anybody deserve the love of God.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 minute ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I am whiffing calvin too miss muffet.      The spirit reaches out , many REJECT IT .  

come now Roberto.   where is this really leading too.   GET THE GOSPLE OUT TO EVERYTHING , make it a HIGH MISSION , its LIFE for all who reicieve it.

 

YES FREE WILL is NOT A MYTH.    Rather odd , if their is no free will, then how come paul says OBEY THE SPIRIT.  oh we have a choice.   he will unction us to obey

but if we heed not that unction, NOW THAT IS ON US.  we have free will .   Grace does not come to us by our free will. THAT WOULD BE TRUE TOO.

But whether we continue in HIM, our free will comes into to action.  CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom you shall serve , AND I DIE DAILY.   well now that sure shows

we have a will . SO I say FOLLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT , obey its UNCTIONS and its DESIRES it places in us.  DO IT DAILEY. amen.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Robert William said:

Cobalt, I think if you read Ephienschapter one and Romans chapter eight and nine you may have a different understanding.

Free will is a myth.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Time does NOT APPLY TO GOD. God is all knowing. He knew who would be regenerated because God knows everything ahead of time. It is NOT because he cherry picks humanity

 

1 minute ago, Robert William said:

Free will is a myth. https://carm.org/what-is-free-will

 

Id hardly call Matt Slick the authority on anything!! 

2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

[Robert William]

Just now, Cobalt1959 said:

I'm just going to let you have fun.

OK my beloved brother, thanks for an enjoyable discussion. beloved

[Robert William]

1 minute ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Time does NOT APPLY TO GOD. God is all knowing. He knew who would be regenerated because God knows everything ahead of time. It is NOT because he cherry picks humanity

 

Id hardly call Matt Slick the authority on anything!! 

2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

To the lovely blue eyed lady   Please look at the beginning of that verse to see who the subject is, it's the beloved, NOT all humans.