What is free will?

[Couppy]

37 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

As I said, just as the cops use a criminal to do their bidding, God uses those He knows won't repent to do His bidding. If the criminal refuses, the cops can't do anything, just like God. If Pharaoh repented and chose to let them go, no hardening of the heart would have stopped him. It's all about choice.

Pharaoh had no choice.  Romans 9:17 states that God raised him up to glorify himself. "For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

[GandalfTheWise]

To interject myself again.   

The point I raised earlier is that most Christians approach this subject from the point of logical negation.  There is the assumption that scripture teaches only God's sovereignty (and thus any human choices are limited by God) or that scripture only teaches that God has given humans the choice of their eternal destination (and thus God has limited sovereignty).  There is the assumption that logic dictates that it must be one or the other.   The main thing I see is that some Christians take some proof texts showing God's sovereignty and then assume that logic dictates that human choices must be limited.  Similarly, I see some Christians take some proof texts showing the human free will seems to determine their own eternal destination and then assume that God cannot predestine eternal life or death because it seems logically impossible.

The question I raise is if we should be treating this entire issue as one of the mysteries of the faith such as the Trinity or the full deity/full humanity of Christ.  We simply take the proof texts of Christ's divinity and do not try to explain why these logically prove that He was only a spiritually being and not really a true human.  We simply take proof texts of Christ's humanity and do not try to explain why these logically prove that he was just a specially spiritually empowered human.   Should we take verses such as God hardening pharaoh's heart as being true and that yes indeed He did and that verses that pharaoh hardened his own heart do say what they mean and the yes indeed, pharaoh hardened his own heart?   Why must we insist that there is a dichotomy where only one or the other has to be true and the other false?  Could this be one of those mysteries that the biblical teaching is that both are indeed real and true? 

The reality is that we Christians practically act as if our choices do matter, and we also act as if God is in control of everything.  In day to day life, we pretty much take both for granted.  It's just that when we try to invoke logic, we end up denying that one or the other is real and spending much time and effort and good will arguing about it.

 

[the watchman]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:58 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Matt Slick's (CARM)

aww carm  i post the forum there   gets rather interesting   it usually  ends up being told i am false teaching lol

[Couppy]

1 hour ago, GandalfTheWise said:

The reality is that we Christians practically act as if our choices do matter, and we also act as if God is in control of everything.  In day to day life, we pretty much take both for granted.  It's just that when we try to invoke logic, we end up denying that one or the other is real and spending much time and effort and good will arguing about it.

 

I already stated in a previous post that there is a possibility that God is in control of some of our choices and we can also make choices (midway point between two extremes).  It does not mean that we cannot state categorically whether we believe God is in control of something.  The bible states God hardened Pharaoh's heart.  Therefore I believe God did exactly that.  If the bible states that Pharaoh chose to harden his heart, without mentioning God said he would do it, then there is no reason for me not to believe that Pharaoh chose to do it without God's intervention. On this occasion, God hardened Pharaoh's heart, according to the scriptures.

There are many examples in the Scriptures where we have free will to choose.  But Pharaoh's example is not one of them, according to Exodus 9:12.  It is either God hardened his heart or God did not do it.

[missmuffet]

26 minutes ago, the watchman said:

aww carm  i post the forum there   gets rather interesting   it usually  ends up being told i am false teaching lol

Why would it say you are a false teacher?

[the watchman]

25 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Why would it say you are a false teacher?

they guess my English skills made it look like it..   it is armn  calvinist  section there is one guy pretty easy to get along with. the others  well lets just say  .they have no problem saying your wrong. i have been  suspended several times  .  i dont mind discussing  the difference  the calvinist  has some good points  .. but when it comes to your either the elect or not  to be saved i draw the line  . the big one is children going to heaven   they say its not in the Bible if babies go to heaven or hell  they have to be the elect.

[missmuffet]

15 minutes ago, the watchman said:

they guess my English skills made it look like it..   it is armn  calvinist  section there is one guy pretty easy to get along with. the others  well lets just say  .they have no problem saying your wrong. i have been  suspended several times  .  i dont mind discussing  the difference  the calvinist  has some good points  .. but when it comes to your either the elect or not  to be saved i draw the line  . the big one is children going to heaven   they say its not in the Bible if babies go to heaven or hell  they have to be the elect.

Is it so severe that you should be suspended? Over a Calvinist disagreement?

[the watchman]

37 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Is it so severe that you should be suspended? Over a Calvinist disagreement?

yes   you have to choose your word wisely

[GandalfTheWise]

19 hours ago, Couppy said:

I already stated in a previous post that there is a possibility that God is in control of some of our choices and we can also make choices (midway point between two extremes).  It does not mean that we cannot state categorically whether we believe God is in control of something.  The bible states God hardened Pharaoh's heart.  Therefore I believe God did exactly that.  If the bible states that Pharaoh chose to harden his heart, without mentioning God said he would do it, then there is no reason for me not to believe that Pharaoh chose to do it without God's intervention. On this occasion, God hardened Pharaoh's heart, according to the scriptures.

There are many examples in the Scriptures where we have free will to choose.  But Pharaoh's example is not one of them, according to Exodus 9:12.  It is either God hardened his heart or God did not do it.

Why must we choose that the Bible either teaches that God hardened pharaoh's heart or that pharaoh did?  Why can we not consider that the Bible seems to clearly state both that God hardened pharaoh's heart and that pharaoh hardened his own heart?

Some people today say that Jesus either has to be God or He has to be human; that it is impossible for Him to be both.  My response is that the Bible teaches both so we just accept it.  Why can't the issue of pharaoh's hardened heart be a similar case where the Bible is teaching both?

 

[Couppy]

5 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Why must we choose that the Bible either teaches that God hardened pharaoh's heart or that pharaoh did?  Why can we not consider that the Bible seems to clearly state both that God hardened pharaoh's heart and that pharaoh hardened his own heart?

Some people today say that Jesus either has to be God or He has to be human; that it is impossible for Him to be both.  My response is that the Bible teaches both so we just accept it.  Why can't the issue of pharaoh's hardened heart be a similar case where the Bible is teaching both?

 

The bible teaches that Jesus was God incarnate and he was also human when he was on earth.  God is not human.  If Pharaoh hardened his own heart why would God try to harden it again?  I believe there is free will to an extent and the bible teaches that.  Having said that, the bible states  "For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."  Romans 9:15-16

The Scripture quoted below will explain that God prepared Pharaoh as a vessel for dishonour to glorify his name.  Romans 9:17-25. I do not need to explain anything.  The verses are self-explanatory.

 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”  But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”  Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,  and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,  even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?