Gluttony The Church Approved Sin?

[Fidei Defensor]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, LadyKay said:

We can not depend on the church to keep us in line so to say. There is simply a whole list of things in the world that can be and are consider to be sin. I do not think we should fault the church for not preaching  against everything that can be a sin. It is my feelings that if the church is teaching  the basic teaching of God's word, and teaching one how to follow the teachings of Christ,how to  personally seek God's will in one's life, how to listen to the  Holy Spirit to guild us. Doing these things will take care of most or maybe even all other things.   God will direct our paths and how we should go. If we only learn to listen. 

What do you then do with these verses?

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17) 

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of God^[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) 

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?13God will judge those outside." (1 Corinthians 5:12-13). 

"Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! ⁴ Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? ⁸ Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. ⁹ Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men^{[a] 10} nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:3-10). 

"Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:20) 

"you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that." (1 John 5:19), gluttony was a sin leading to death, "They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:20-21). Obviously we arnt' under the Law anymore (Galatians 5:4), but my point is gluttony was sin leading to death, and John says don't just pray for someone practicing a sin leading to death, but I argue that we should respond as Jesus said about these kind of sins, "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. ¹⁷ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17). While gluttony may not be sin against you personally, it is a sin leading to death, and so I figure Christ would want us to first go in private to friend struggling with gluttony, then if that doesn't work, get more help; meaning just don't pray only about it as John says.  

Edited October 3, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[LadyKay]

26 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

What do you then do with these verses?

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17) 

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ¹⁷ that the man of God^[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) 

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?13God will judge those outside." (1 Corinthians 5:12-13). 

"Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! ⁴ Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? ⁸ Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. ⁹ Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men^{[a] 10} nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:3-10). 

"Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:20) 

"you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that." (1 John 5:19), gluttony was a sin leading to death, "They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:20-21). Obviously we arnt' under the Law anymore (Galatians 5:4), but my point is gluttony was sin leading to death, and John says don't just pray for someone practicing a sin leading to death, but I argue that we should respond as Jesus said about these kind of sins, "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. ¹⁷ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17). While gluttony may not be sin against you personally, it is a sin leading to death, and so I figure Christ would want us to first go in private to friend struggling with gluttony, then if that doesn't work, get more help; meaning just don't pray only about it as John says.  

I am unsure as to how to respond here. Are you implying that my comments go against the word of God in some way? 

[Fidei Defensor]

4 hours ago, LadyKay said:

I am unsure as to how to respond here. Are you implying that my comments go against the word of God in some way? 

I am not implying anything, I am asking how do you reconcile the verses I shared with the ones you shared? For what I have shared differs from what you shared. As you probably know there is a tension in Bible of opposites for different situations, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him," (Proverbs 26:4), and "Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation." (Proverbs 26:5). Soloman's paradox here is easily understood, in certain situations answering a fool can make you look foolish and you waste your time, in other cases if a fool is deceiving people you know and becoming wise in his own eyes, you correct the fool. 

For future reference,  I tend to ask questions in the Socratic method. 

[LadyKay]

8 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am not implying anything, I am asking how do you reconcile the verses I shared with the ones you shared? For what I have shared differs from what you shared. As you probably know there is a tension in Bible of opposites for different situations, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him," (Proverbs 26:4), and "Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation." (Proverbs 26:5). Soloman's paradox here is easily understood, in certain situations answering a fool can make you look foolish and you waste your time, in other cases if a fool is deceiving people you know and becoming wise in his own eyes, you correct the fool. 

For future reference,  I tend to ask questions in the Socratic method. 

I can really only address one topic at a time and become confused if more is thrown at me. I don't guess I can say more about it. I gave my thoughts on the matter. You can disagree with them if you like. Good day. 

[Neighbor]

10 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am not implying anything, I am asking how do you reconcile the verses I shared with the ones you shared? For what I have shared differs from what you shared. As you probably know there is a tension in Bible of opposites for different situations, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him," (Proverbs 26:4), and "Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation." (Proverbs 26:5). Soloman's paradox here is easily understood, in certain situations answering a fool can make you look foolish and you waste your time, in other cases if a fool is deceiving people you know and becoming wise in his own eyes, you correct the fool. 

For future reference,  I tend to ask questions in the Socratic method. 

"For future reference,  I tend to ask questions in the Socratic method. "

Me: Aagh!!!! Yet another critical thinker to run amock among the people eh? Ha.

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Neighbor

[Neighbor]

10 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

 

Hi,

Wondering: Did Satan use critical thinking skill in the manner of Socrates when his addressed the first wo-man?  

And; does God say; come let us reason together, what do you think of these ten basic ideas?

My own notion is that  if Eve had followed the dictates of God she would not have been deceived by the craftiness of the Evil One's questioning manner of encouraging critical thinking.

What do you think;  is there a contrast in styles between God and satan?

Should we question  even God in our seeking of a personal sense of wisdom? Or is there greater wisdom in  simply doing as God commands?

 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”  And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,  but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”  But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.  For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”  So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.  Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

----------

My own conclusion on critical thinking is there is a time for discussion, but not a good time to question God's good purposes. He has no need of our critical thinking skill to be added to his command. And that though the Jewish style is also to answer a question with a question  their experiences tend to teach it is not all that grand an idea, perhaps not the best model to emulate.

Playing critical thinking's "Twenty questions" makes me appreciate the  "style" of frienduff thaylorde for least with his approach I know where we are going immediately, for we will have already gotten there with the first post on any subject.

Overall  I suppose  my preference is for the old newpaper reporter approach of  what when why where and who- tell me what you are going to tell me about, then tell me about it, and then tell me the why. Don't lead me blindly to a broadside, an ambush, nor use any   subterfuge even gentle subterfuge for my own good by asking twenty questions  designed to  slowly cook a frog in water by turning the heat up ever so slow.

What do you think? Is that somehing "we" might want to ponder or maybe to change to yet another subject, or .... how may we reason this out together? 

 I thank you for the interesting time of pondering our God's desire for each  of us that  your reference to Socrates has presented me as I have my morning tea, instead of a glutenous feast on eggs, breads, jams, bacon, etc..

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,

Wondering: Did Satan use critical thinking skill in the manner of Socrates when his addressed the first wo-man?  

And; does God say; come let us reason together, what do you think of these ten basic ideas?

My own notion is that  if Eve had followed the dictates of God she would not have been deceived by the craftiness of the Evil One's questioning manner of encouraging critical thinking.

What do you think;  is there a contrast in styles between God and satan?

Should we question  even God in our seeking of a personal sense of wisdom? Or is there greater wisdom in  simply doing as God commands?

 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”  And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden,  but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”  But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.  For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”  So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.  Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

----------

My own conclusion on critical thinking is there is a time for discussion, but not a good time to question God's good purposes. He has no need of our critical thinking skill to be added to his command. And that though the Jewish style is also to answer a question with a question  their experiences tend to teach it is not all that grand an idea, perhaps not the best model to emulate.

Playing critical thinking's "Twenty questions" makes me appreciate the  "style" of frienduff thaylorde for least with his approach I know where we are going immediately, for we will have already gotten there with the first post on any subject.

Overall  I suppose  my preference is for the old newpaper reporter approach of  what when why where and who- tell me what you are going to tell me about, then tell me about it, and then tell me the why. Don't lead me blindly to a broadside, an ambush, nor use any   subterfuge even gentle subterfuge for my own good by asking twenty questions  designed to  slowly cook a frog in water by turning the heat up ever so slow.

What do you think? Is that somehing "we" might want to ponder or maybe to change to yet another subject, or .... how may we reason this out together? 

 I thank you for the interesting time of pondering our God's desire for each  of us that  your reference to Socrates has presented me as I have my morning tea, instead of a glutenous feast on eggs, breads, jams, bacon, etc..

There is a lot to respond to here, and I have insufficient time. I will read it more clearly and respond to each point. 

As for did Satan use the Socratic method, possibly. But Paul uses Socratic method a lot in His Epistles. The Socratic Method is simply asking more pressing questions to get the person to delve deeper and come up with stronger answers and arguments (apologies, apologetics). It is a way of learning, but I am not convinced Satan used it because Satan lied to Adam and Eve, Satan's quote, "God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die," (Genesis 3:3) and here is what God said, "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." (Genesis 2:17). Satan added touch, God said nothing about touching it, and by doing this the devil made God seem very austere and harsh. And Satan is liar, not a educator who questions people to help them better understand, Satan's question in Garden made Man fall into sin, just as Satan had (Ezekiel 28:11-18, Revelation 12:7-17), and Satan is a total liar, for Jesus said of Him, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44). The Socratic Method's goal is to get people to ask more questions and come up with a reasonable answer to the question; not lie and deceive as the devil did. 

[LadyKay]

14 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am not implying anything, I am asking how do you reconcile the verses I shared with the ones you shared? For what I have shared differs from what you shared. As you probably know there is a tension in Bible of opposites for different situations, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him," (Proverbs 26:4), and "Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools, or they will become wise in their own estimation." (Proverbs 26:5). Soloman's paradox here is easily understood, in certain situations answering a fool can make you look foolish and you waste your time, in other cases if a fool is deceiving people you know and becoming wise in his own eyes, you correct the fool. 

For future reference,  I tend to ask questions in the Socratic method. 

I hope you don't mind me replying to the same post but more thoughts seem to pop into my head after I hit the submit button. While I can agree that the church does have a duty to point out sin. Meaning educating it's followers as to something being a sin. Such as gluttony. As it may very well be that some just might not know. I just feel that it is more important for the church to teach the followers how to recognize  sin on their own.  Teach them how to listen and how to seek the guidance of The Father. As there are many many many sins in this world that we can be tempted to fall too. Let us not become a follower of the church instead of a follower of Christ. Saying "well the church didn't say I couldn't do it so it must be alright."  Or this one. "The church says not to do this but I don't know why but if the church says not too then I guess I shouldn't."   I hope this gives us a better understanding. 

[Fidei Defensor]

52 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I hope you don't mind me replying to the same post but more thoughts seem to pop into my head after I hit the submit button. While I can agree that the church does have a duty to point out sin. Meaning educating it's followers as to something being a sin. Such as gluttony. As it may very well be that some just might not know. I just feel that it is more important for the church to teach the followers how to recognize  sin on their own.  Teach them how to listen and how to seek the guidance of The Father. As there are many many many sins in this world that we can be tempted to fall too. Let us not become a follower of the church instead of a follower of Christ. Saying "well the church didn't say I couldn't do it so it must be alright."  Or this one. "The church says not to do this but I don't know why but if the church says not too then I guess I shouldn't."   I hope this gives us a better understanding. 

Respectfully, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit gave the Scriptures (God breathed them 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:19-21) to the prophets and Apostles that teach how to walk out of specific sins and stay focused on Christ who conquered sin for us. The point is Christ lives in us (Colossians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 3:16) and so is helping us from within, not without like Pharisees tried to do. For it is written, "If you suffer for Christ you are finished with sin," (1 Peter 4:10), "In your struggle with sin you have not yet resisted sin to the point of shedding your own blood." (Hebrews 12:4), and "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a]that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reignin your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master,because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:1-14).

Christ has atomed for all our sins and forgives them (1 John 2:1-2); however we should be growing in maturity (Philippians 3:8-15) and working with Christ in us in a partnership of turning from sin and turning into His likeness, "So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image." (2 Corinthians 3:18).

We arn't try to atone for out sins, we are now forgiven and turning from sin through Christ and Christ in us (1 John 4:15).  

Edited October 4, 2017 by Fidei Defensor

[Heleadethme]

On 10/2/2017 at 11:31 AM, LadyKay said:

We can not depend on the church to keep us in line so to say. There is simply a whole list of things in the world that can be and are consider to be sin. I do not think we should fault the church for not preaching  against everything that can be a sin. It is my feelings that if the church is teaching  the basic teaching of God's word, and teaching one how to follow the teachings of Christ,how to  personally seek God's will in one's life, how to listen to the  Holy Spirit to guild us. Doing these things will take care of most or maybe even all other things.   God will direct our paths and how we should go. If we only learn to listen. 

I agree we are not to depend on the church.......but, as the church, we have a responsibility to preach/teach the whole truth, all of scripture, all of the bible.  Part of the problem is they waste huge amounts of teaching/preaching time expounding their own thoughts instead of the word of God.  If those that have a voice in the body of Christ were hearing and heeding His Spirit, then all of God's word would be brought forth and become the standard we adhere to.  It's pretty obvious that hirelings tailor their "sermons" to what is palatable to the people for reasons of self-interest....and that always means pandering to the flesh instead of correcting it.  Speaking the truth in love even when it's not popular........is self-sacrifice.......because there is going to be backlash from people's flesh and the devils that hold them in bondage, guaranteed.......but greater love has no man than this, than that he lay down his life for his friends, and suffer the backlash, and the loss of all things, anyway.