Discussion with a Mormon

[Paul MT]

   

Paul,   

   

I would like to get your thoughts on the following statement:   

   

"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."   

   

I would also like your thoughts on the infallibility of the Bible and the Book of Mormon.   

   

In Him.   

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This I belive this is the purpose for which we were created - eternal progression. I think this quote comes from a talk called the King Follett discourse. I have read it once, but don't have access to it at the moment. Is it scripture - no. Is it prophesy - no, but I do believe that it is imparted knowledge that was revealed to us - yes. Can I prove it - no, does belief (or no belief) in it affect or change my position, faith, or duty toward my Father in Heaven right now - no. Paul the apostlel said we see through dark glass, and don't see every thing there is to be known. Its good to know - why not. Is it necessay to know - I don't think so. I think it is a glimpse of what is to come. This is a very short explanation of you question. Maybe you can find the full document on another site.

[Paul MT]

Paul, thanks for being so open.  I'm new here too so we'll feel our way around together, shall we?

Lekcit asked about your beliefs regarding the infallibility of the Bible and the Book of Mormon.  I, too, am interested in your answer to this question.

Thank you!

Enchiridion

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I see this could become a full time job, but I like talking about the "Gospel". I've come to understand in the last few days that this might be taken to mean something else in some peoples mind, especilally referring to my beliefs. I don't really want to be drawn in to "picking over words" match in scripture to support each others side. I view the OT,NT, and BoM as being equal. I read the NT more than I do the BoM, especially the Gospels, and the eppisles of Peter, James, and John. How ever, that is not to say the BoM is not important to me. The message of the Gospel ( That Jesus is the Christ) is presented simplly and is repeated over and over through the experiences of the people writen about within it.

Do you mean that every word that is writen in the Bible as it is presented now, is the same that came from the pen of the writer, and that everything that was ever writen by these authors are present, when you say infalliblity? if that is your meaning (I'm not sure, just guesing). In my heart I would have to say no. Not that there were not many "just people" trying to do this through the ages. I just think there was too much political manipulation going on in the years after Christ. I'm sorry, Im not the brightest penny on the block when it comes to explaning things. It's been fun thou.

[Guest Bro David™]

If you looking for me to give you my belief on these questions. I'd be happy to. Again I am not here to argue your beliefs, or to prove mine. So this is my take on some of these issues . I'll try to sum things up using as few words as I can to get my idea across.

However, the Book of Mormon said he would be born at Jerusalem.

Alma 7: 10 

"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin..."

My Question: are we talking about two very diff" people ?

I believe that the use of the word "Jerusalem" here refers to the general area. Here  it is not referred to as "the city of" but "is the land of". Much like I would say to you if I were to explain where I was from. I could say (which I have to others in this site) I come from Port Moody, BC. or I could say I come from the Vancouver area. 

If so who is the Jesus the Mormons pray too ?

We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

Do mormons belive that Jesus's position has the son of God was contested by another son of God Lucifer ?

I believe at the great council in heaven Heavenly Father layed out a plan by which his spirit children would come to this earth, receive a body, gain knowledge and experience, and then return to him again. Satan, or Lucifer  said something like "I will force them to comply with the plan, and not one of them will be lost, but the glory of it will be mine". Jesus or Jehovah said something to the effect "Father I will carry out your plan, the way you have set it out, and all the glory will be yours" . As a result Lucifer was cast out of heaven with all those that thought his idea was better. I'll leave it up to you to decide if it was a contest or not.

The Jesus in the Bible is The Creator.

I beleive that Jesus (Jehovah) is the Creator, under the authority of our Father in Heaven

Above all else he was not the brother of Lucifer.

I can't comment on this point, as it is an "I say"" you say" kind ot thing. What does the scriptures say about who he is and what is position was. I have come across references to it the NT, but like I say, I don't memorize things very well. There are people here who seem to be very skilled with the scriptures. Could some one help us our here. Thanks.

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Greetings Paul,

I can help but notice that my underlining question went un-answered.

Are we then talking about the same Jesus ?.

He was born in diff" places, said diff things.

[Speechless]

I believe at the great council in heaven Heavenly Father layed out a plan by which his spirit children would come to this earth, receive a body, gain knowledge and experience, and then return to him again.

I dont understand what is meant by 'spirit children'. could you elaborate on that for me. what or who are spirit children

[Paul MT]

Above all else he was not the brother of Lucifer.

I can't comment on this point, as it is an "I say"" you say" kind ot thing. What does the scriptures say about who he is and what is position was. I have come across references to it the NT, but like I say, I don't memorize things very well. There are people here who seem to be very skilled with the scriptures. Could some one help us our here. Thanks.

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I believe that this poster is making reference to various statements made and published by Mormon "apostles" that Jesus and Lucifer are "spirit brothers," that they came from "Father God" as the Mormons refer to God the Father (Note that there is a difference in connotation there.):

"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. ... He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ. When his proposition was rejected, he forsook all that he had gained, .... He was no longer Lucifer, bearer of truth, who walked in light, but Satan, teacher of untruth, who slunk in darkness. He became the enemy of God and of all who try to walk according to the Lord's commandments. One-third of the spirits present in that vast assembly supported Satan and became enemies of the truth that they had formerly cherished. With him these rebellious spirits lost their fellowship with the valiant sons of God. (Apostle John A. Widstoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)"

"The appointment of Jesus to be savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer

[Paul MT]

[quote name='Bro David

[Speechless]

I was hoping you could shed a little light on a few statements, references are quoted, and give your opinion on them... here they go..

Atonement

"Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing,

[Frisbinator]

Hello Paul. I appreciate your willingness to discuss your beliefs openly with us. I have always been curious as to how Mormons feel about the following, but have never been able to obtain a clear explanation. Perhaps you could shed some light on how the Mormon community feels about the following statements:

The following are 27 various animals, animal products, crops, metals and metal products mentioned in the Book of Mormon:

Animals and animal products:

Ass,Bull,Calf,Cattle,Cow,Butter,Elephants,Milk,Flocks,Goat (The Nephites claimed to have found the domestic goat.),Herds Horse (The horse plays a major role in the Nephite and Lamanite societies.) ,Ox ,Sheep (This was a major animal in the Book of Mormon.) ,Sow, and Swine.

Crops:

Barley (Moses 7:22, 9:9, Alma 11:7, 15)

Figs (3 Nephi 14:16)

Grapes (2 Nephi 15:2, 4, 3 Nephi 14:16)

Wheat (Moses 9:9, 3 Nephi 18:18)

Metals and metal products:

The following metals, metal products, or metal manufacturing are mentioned in the Book of Mormon record: Bellows,Brass,Breast Plates,Chains,Copper,Iron,Ore (mining),Plows,Silver,Swords (metal), and Steel.

As far as the animals and crops are concerned:

There is no independent (non-Mormon) archeological evidence that any of these existed in the area and time frame of The Book of Mormon.

As far as the metals and metal products are concerned:

Independent (non-Mormon) archeological evidence shows that none of these were manufactured or used in the area and time frame of 2 Nephi 5. The Smithsonian Institution's Dept. Of Anthropology declares the Americas did not have steel or horses before 1492. The Book of Mormon (600 B.C. to 421 A.D.) claims both steel (1 Nephi 4:9) and horses (Alma 18:9). Gordon H. Fraser, anthropologist and ethnologist, agrees with the Smithsonian Institution and adds that copper (Mosiah 8:10) was unknown at that early date as referred to in the Book of Mormon.

Also:

1. No Book of Mormon cities have been located.

2. No Book of Mormon names have been found in New World inscriptions.

3. No genuine inscriptions have been found in Hebrew in America.

4. No genuine inscriptions have been found in America in Egyptian or anything similar to Egyptian, which could correspond to Joseph Smith's 'reformed Egyptian.'

5. No ancient copies of Book of Mormon scriptures have been found.

6. No ancient inscriptions of any kind in America which indicate that the ancient inhabitants had Hebrew or Christian beliefs have been found.

7. No mention of Book of Mormon persons, nations, or places have been found.

(Archaeology and the Book of Mormon by Hal Hougey, p. 12)

Thankyou very much for taking the time to read this and I am looking forward to your reply.

-Trent

Edited April 13, 2005 by Frisbinator

[Deez131]

I believe at the great council in heaven Heavenly Father layed out a plan by which his spirit children would come to this earth, receive a body, gain knowledge and experience, and then return to him again.

I dont understand what is meant by 'spirit children'. could you elaborate on that for me. what or who are spirit children

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Figured I would help Paul out a little here. His fingers are probably getting very tired! You're a popular guy, Paul! I hope you don't get overwhelmed. I'm sure there are tons of questions from everyone.

The LDS church believes in a preexistence and "spirit children." They believe that God was once a man that lived on another planet called Kolob. He lived there with many hundreds of wives who he had relations with to create the spirit children. Those spirit children come to earth to obtain a body and live with their earthly parents (hoping to continue the cycle, which is eternal progression.) Anyway, two of those spirit children were Jesus and Satan. They are considered brothers.

The thing that I was always uncomfortable about was that Mary was also a spiritual offspring of God the Father. His daughter. Mormon teaching says that God the Father came down and had physical relations with her (Mary) to create the body of Jesus. That's not very openly taught anymore, but is still a part of the church teachings.

[Khristeeanos]

Those spirit children come to earth to obtain a body and live with their earthly parents (hoping to continue the cycle, which is eternal progression.) 

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I was wondering how the LDS church believes these spirits came to earth. Is Kolob far away and it would take them a long time to travel here or is it instantaneous or what?

I don't know as much as I should about these sorts of things. Thanks for your time.