Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

[Quasar93]

50 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Correct it is my only argument as I'm only focusing on Rev 4. 

I am not interested in other raptured verses apart from Rev 4 can contextually be satisfied. Im happy to treat Rev 4 as unanswered and we can move on to 2Th2:3 and only focuse on 2th 2:3, while I await actual contextual prove for Rev 4

Please understand I wish to treat every verse that is going to be used with due diligence. Currently as it stands you have not provided actual facts that Rev 4 is symbolic. I do not accept retro-fitting of verses, thats simply my own approach and methodology with scripture. 

 

 

 

Nor am I interested in any further argument you have as to whether Rev.4:1-2 is what Jesus used John as in representing the Church, or not.  The Scriptures prove that it is, and  you are in denial of it..  I have no further plans to continue arguing with your ongoing speculation pertaining to interpretatio of eschatology.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 17, 2017 by Quasar93

[Montana Marv]

John being a symbolism of the Raptured Church. I have been around a long time, and this is the first time I have heard of this.

This sounds like the writing for a thesis for a Doctorate. God be with you.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:45 PM, Quasar93 said:

... in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!
Quasar93

Some people have amazing eyesight and imagination and when John is called up to be taught things in the future (so He could write Revelation) they imagine the rapture of the church is somehow hidden between these words. However, a careful reading will reveal this was ONLY JOHN called up. To use this verse as a rapture verse when it is only talking about John makes people think pretribbers have great imaginations.

"While tribulation is taking place on earth..."  Indeed, the 7th week of Daniel is covered from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - much of the book.

If Rev. 4:1 is not the rapture, did God give us a hint in Revelation? Yes. Seal 5 is about the martyrs of the church age, and was broken or opened way back in 32 or 33 AD when Jesus ascended. And those souls under the altar were told they had to wait for the time of judgment. How long must they wait? We live in the age of "GRACE." Judgment cannot start until this age ends. It will end with the pretrib rapture of the church. Then, and only then, can God begin to judge. We see this judgment begin with the 6th seal. It is no mistake then, that John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in the next chapter.

Therefore, the rapture of the church, not seen by John, will take place just before the 6th seal, and the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal for these two thousand years. God is waiting for the last martyr of the church age.

[iamlamad]

On 12/17/2017 at 1:54 PM, inchrist said:

Correct it is my only argument as I'm only focusing on Rev 4. 

I am not interested in other raptured verses apart from Rev 4 can contextually be satisfied. Im happy to treat Rev 4 as unanswered and we can move on to 2Th2:3 and only focuse on 2th 2:3, while I await actual contextual prove for Rev 4

Please understand I wish to treat every verse that is going to be used with due diligence. Currently as it stands you have not provided actual facts that Rev 4 is symbolic. I do not accept retro-fitting of verses, thats simply my own approach and methodology with scripture. 

 

 

I agree with you here. Any good exegesis of Rev. 4 tells us it is JOHN caught up for the purpose of seeing what is to come.

As for 2 Thes. 2:3, it also is clear with good exegesis - but it is a difficult passage. Paul did not mean a falling away, he meant a departing - and in context that departing would be the departure of the church as in the rapture. It is the only belief that fits the context of this passage.

Indeed, a good exegesis shows us that whatever Paul meant when he penned "apostasia" the meaning has to be the entity who is restraining or holding back the revealing of the antichrist being removed so that the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time. Paul's two letters to the Thessalonians are in complete agreement. 

 

[Quasar93]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Some people have amazing eyesight and imagination and when John is called up to be taught things in the future (so He could write Revelation) they imagine the rapture of the church is somehow hidden between these words. However, a careful reading will reveal this was ONLY JOHN called up. To use this verse as a rapture verse when it is only talking about John makes people think pretribbers have great imaginations.

"While tribulation is taking place on earth..."  Indeed, the 7th week of Daniel is covered from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - much of the book.

If Rev. 4:1 is not the rapture, did God give us a hint in Revelation? Yes. Seal 5 is about the martyrs of the church age, and was broken or opened way back in 32 or 33 AD when Jesus ascended. And those souls under the altar were told they had to wait for the time of judgment. How long must they wait? We live in the age of "GRACE." Judgment cannot start until this age ends. It will end with the pretrib rapture of the church. Then, and only then, can God begin to judge. We see this judgment begin with the 6th seal. It is no mistake then, that John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN in the next chapter.

Therefore, the rapture of the church, not seen by John, will take place just before the 6th seal, and the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal for these two thousand years. God is waiting for the last martyr of the church age.

 

According to the Scriptural facts posted here many times over previously, the Church is caught up [raptured] before the tribulation begins, as documented  [again] in the following.  The only reference to the Church in Revelation, is being called up before the tribulation begins, symbolized by John being called up in Rev.4:1-2, confirmed in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  Then again at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8, and at the return of Jesus in His second coming to earth, WITH HIS CHURCH in Rev.19:14.

>>>2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.<<<

 

Quasar93
 

 

[iamlamad]

Quasar wrote,

According to the Scriptural facts posted here many times over previously, the Church is caught up [raptured] before the tribulation begins, as documented  [again] in the following.  The only reference to the Church in Revelation, is being called up before the tribulation begins, symbolized by John being called up in Rev.4:1-2, confirmed in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  Then again at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8, and at the return of Jesus in His second coming to earth, WITH HIS CHURCH in Rev.19:14.

John was called up to heaven and saw events taking place in heaven, so His focus was not on the earth. We can be sure, as soon as the rapture takes place, millions who will be left behind will become very serious with God. For example, we find in Rev. 12 that the dragon (Satan) will go after the remnant (those left behind after the main load has been removed) of the woman's seed: believers in Jesus Christ. If they refuse the mark and lose their head, they will be caught up to heaven. John saw such in Rev. 15 and Rev. 20.

Therefore, to use as an argument that John does not mention saints after Rev. 4 is a weak argument for the rapture being symbolically shown in 4:1.  WHEN was John caught up? Certainly within the first hundred years of the church. Yet, the church is still hear. It is therefore a very poor symbol of the rapture.

[iamlamad]

Quasar wrote,

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation],

I rather think that Paul was alluding to the many scriptures about the "Day of the Lord" in the minor prophets and indeed even the major prophets. Dan. 9:27 is rather making reference to the 70th week of Daniel. It will be the second half of the week that is "triggered" by the "he" who will confirm a covenant.

[iamlamad]

Quasar wrote,

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

I agree here. Paul used "apostasia" to refer to the one restraining being "taken out of the way." Indeed, at the departure of the church, then the man of sin will be free to be revealed, for the restrainer will be departed.

[iamlamad]

On 12/17/2017 at 10:34 AM, Montana Marv said:

In Christ

This is me speaking; 

John was always John, he has never been a symbol of the Raptured Church.  Looking at 2 Cor 12:2 - Paul says, I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven,  Whether it was in the body or out of the body, I do not know - God knows.  And I know that this man, whether in the body or apart from the body, but God knows, was caught up to Paradise.  He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Could this individual be considered a symbol of the Raptured Church?  The thing is he returned.  The Raptured Church stays.

John was caught up into Heaven in the Spirit.  This other man was caught up bodily or in the Spirit (not known).  Was he also symbolic of the Raptured Church, I believe neither.  He was one without reproach.

Now back to Rev 4:1 - After this I looked.. Come up here. Now John is in the Spirit in Heaven.  "Then I saw or then I heard", is throughout many of the chapters of Revelation.  This is the part of Rev 1:19 - Write, therefore, what you have seen (the letters to the 7 Churches), what is now, and what will take place later.

Now Christ is/was the "first fruits",  We as the Body of Christ (Church) are considered the second fruits, But will also partake in the glorification of our bodies, as Christ did.  We shall be like Him.

Now since John was called up into Heaven in the Spirit, this is different that those who will go up in the Rapture,  those who remain go up Bodily and in the Spirit.  John's body is still in the grave waiting to be Raptured up to be joined with his spirit.  John was a messenger to us.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I agree, it is very poor exegesis to suggest the Holy Spirit was hinting at a rapture in Rev. 4:1. It is clearly John being caught up.

[iamlamad]

On 12/17/2017 at 2:44 PM, Quasar93 said:

 

Nor am I interested in any further argument you have as to whether Rev.4:1-2 is what Jesus used John as in representing the Church, or not.  The Scriptures prove that it is, and  you are in denial of it..  I have no further plans to continue arguing with your ongoing speculation pertaining to interpretatio of eschatology.

 

Quasar93

Sorry, Quasar, but it is only in YOUR mind that "Scripture proves that it is." Try reading it again with no preconceptions. It is John being caught up. Did you forget that the church martyrs are still be added to the list of martyrs at the 5th seal in chapter 6? Why is that? Because the church is still on earth at the 5th seal.

1st seal: opened around 32 AD to represent the church taking the gospel to the world.

2nd, 3rd, 4th seals: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - but limited to 1/4 of earth's surface. These ride together.

5th seal: the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait for the very last martyr of the church age. In reality they are told they must wait for the rapture that will end the church age.

The rapture was not seen by John, so no mention of it. But it will take place just before the 6th seal earthquake that starts the Day of the Lord.