Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

[Spock]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:14 PM, Last Daze said:

The new covenant is what began at Pentecost, not some "church age".  I'd recommend abandoning the man made doctrine of dispensationalism along with all of its terminology.  There are only believers, and unbelievers.

 

I don’t know about this mate. 

Israel, the nation, is not the church. God made eternal promises with them which he will keep.  All Israel will be saved. The fullness of the Gentiles must first come in. 

I do believe there are distinctions, just not replacement. 

[Spock]

On 12/26/2017 at 4:38 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

The seals are simply an outline of things to come and should not be anything else

The tribulation begins in Revelation 6:12-17 and the details are given in chapters 8 thru 19 

Interesting thought, and I’ve been pondering this for quite some time myself.

Today, I am strongly considering the four horsemen of rev 6 having been already opened, and that perhaps the rapture/Rev 6 will soon be upon us. 

Im also trying to sort out the timing of the Gog, Magog War of Ezekiel 38,39. I’m still open to thinking it may happen just before Daniels 70th week begins and thus the peace covenant pursuant to Dan 9:27, or just after the signing. 

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Mystic_Pizza said:

Wow. I think I picked a really detailed forum to make a first post in, other than the 'welcome' forum...which was easy, lol~

First, I have to say...I'm definitely no scholar- I don't read or write Hebrew, Greek, or any other languages- I didn't attend seminary or any sort of theological anything...and I have to admit I'm definitely no good at 'arguing' a point- such as...those who believe in pre-trib/post-trib/mid-trib...because it seems, as is seen in the forum here, that everyone has 'proof' as to why their point is the right one, and it can be extremely confusing, divisive, and it takes a lot of time to study, lol. So all I'm able to offer is an opinion- just based on years and years of reading various things on the subject, and my own thoughts about it- 

I was brought up in a church where one of the criteria to be a member was, you had to believe in a pre-trib rapture...which I never had an issue with, never questioned- made perfect sense to me, etc. As I got older (which, darn it, we all seem to do, lol), it wasn't as if I ever really 'questioned' the validity of a pre-trib rapture, it was more a matter of...various things coming up which I wondered about - the main thing (personally, for me) was seeing our rather large church, who all believed the pre-trib idea, living a life of...honestly, just relaxation- nothing to worry about, Jesus would come before the tribulation happened, He wouldn't make us go through that sort of thing, we would all be gone before anything 'bad' happened, etc.- and there came a point where I thought to myself, 'what would happen to these people if He didn't come back before 'trouble' started?'... in all honesty, there is 'proof' for pre, mid, and post....it could be any of them, seriously- what began to concern me was the fact that if people believed in a pre-trib rapture, they would in no way be ready for anything 'bad' coming down the pike, so to speak- because they wouldn't be expecting it.

I was put in mind of the virgins who fell asleep waiting for the bridegroom, things of that nature- expecting one thing, and getting something else entirely, maybe. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, lol- that really isn't my intention- I just find it frightening to think of people like the ones back in the day at my old church, if the rapture didn't happen the way they expected it to (remember, I'm saying 'if', lol), and the utter shock and..unpreparedness they would feel if things started to get somewhat dicey when they weren't expecting it to. It could shock and confuse to the point that it could possibly make them wonder what else they may have believed in that might not be 'right'. I for one would love to have it just be pre-trib, and maybe it is...I honestly can't be sure- or maybe it's mid...or post...one thing I want more than anything is to trust in the Lord and hang on tight for whatever ride we are in for, you know? I don't want to be so set in my 'belief' about it that anything else other than what I was expecting would completely unhinge me...

My own personal opinion? I think we'll be heading through some of the tribulation- I have no idea how much, I don't think we will go through God's Wrath because I don't believe we will experience His wrath as believers...but I don't think we're going to get off that easy and experience no hardship whatsoever, lol. Life is full of suffering in various degrees for people, it isn't because people 'sin' or 'do something wrong' or 'don't live the way God wants them to', or anything else- we live in a fallen, sinful world, and we suffer because of it. The Apostles and early Christians suffered greatly- Paul suffered, to be honest, Christianity isn't 'fun' sometimes. We aren't feeling 'blessed' all of the time, there are a lot of times where it's painful and difficult and we have probably all wondered at one time or another just what we've done that we are suffering like we do. But I don't think it's that...I think this is the reality of the Christian life, and what we go through here is a sort of...testing ground, as it were- the thing we strive for now, is what is beyond this life. 

Ok, I'm done, lol~ 

 

Hi Mystic,

at the risk of embarrassing you here, I would like to say WELCOME and I AM SO PROUD TO BE YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST.

This AWESOME Post has graciousness oozing on every word......just as our Lord commanded us.....to love one another, especially your brothers and sisters in Christ. 

This made my day....thank you for modeling appropriate behavior in a sometimes heated discussion. God is good. Okay, back to the discussion.  

Love you,

Spock

[Spock]

On 12/25/2017 at 12:12 PM, iamlamad said:

I agree with you here. Any good exegesis of Rev. 4 tells us it is JOHN caught up for the purpose of seeing what is to come.

As for 2 Thes. 2:3, it also is clear with good exegesis - but it is a difficult passage. Paul did not mean a falling away, he meant a departing - and in context that departing would be the departure of the church as in the rapture. It is the only belief that fits the context of this passage.

Indeed, a good exegesis shows us that whatever Paul meant when he penned "apostasia" the meaning has to be the entity who is restraining or holding back the revealing of the antichrist being removed so that the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time. Paul's two letters to the Thessalonians are in complete agreement. 

 

This is an interesting interpretation and I wonder why it has just been recently that we have now been hearing people starting to say this. For so long, we were told “apostasy” was the church falling away from truth, but of late, more people are seeing “apostacia”as meaning DEPARTURE, as in Rapture? 

Of course, this makes everyone nervous when the rules change in the middle of the game, but I agree...it is better to change to what is more ACCURATE than to keep it erroneous. 

[Spock]

On 12/17/2017 at 8:00 AM, Justin Adams said:

Do you not know history? That all the rapture stuff is Jesuit in origin? So much of Rome's early stuff is practiced today by an unknowing 'reformed' so-called 'protestant' faith. It just boggles my mind!

I didn’t know 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 was written by Jesuits and thus Jesuit literature. And here I thought it was Biblical literature. Hmmm

 

[Spock]

11 hours ago, n2thelight said:

ONE SECOND COMING
 

SCRIPTURES SPEAK OF ONE SECOND COMING,
NOT TWO COMINGS,
OR OF ONE COMING IN TWO STAGES

Dispensationalism postulates that the Second Coming of Christ will occur in two stages. First, the Lord is coming for the Church (the Rapture); and, second, the Lord is coming with the Church (the Revelation). The first coming will be private, but the second coming will be public. Only the Church will know of the first, but the whole world will know of the second. The first is to catch away the Church from the earth; the second is for the Church to come back to the earth with the Lord. The first finds the Lord stopping in the air with the Church rising to meet Him; the second finds the Lord returning to this earth with the Church to rule and reign. These two stages will be separated by the years of the Great Tribulation. Such are the affirmations of the Dispensationalists.

It should be noted that Dispensationalists refer to the Lord’s coming before the Tribulation as the “Rapture,” and speak of His coming after the Tribulation as the “Second Coming,” “Second Advent,” or simply, the “Return.” Instead of maintaining one coming in two stages, they, therefore, can speak of one Second Coming, preceded seven years earlier by the Rapture. But whether there is one coming in two stages, or a Second Coming preceded by the Rapture, the truth of the matter is that in both of these formats the Lord returns twice. And the problem for the non-dispensationalist is in this two-fold nature of His end-time manifestation.

Scriptures are made to fit this two-part system, with some Scriptures said to be referring to the Rapture while other Scriptures are said to be speaking of the Revelation. For example, when Paul says to Titus that believers are to be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2:13), the Dispensationalists affirm that this refers to the Rapture, the imminent catching away of the Church by the Lord before the Tribulation. But when John writes in Revelation that “He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall see Him” (1:7), they affirm that this is the Revelation, the public return at the end of the Tribulation. Thus, Scriptures that speak of the Second Coming are divided up, while some are associated with the Rapture others are placed with the Revelation. The challenge, therefore, is to separate properly the passages that refer to the Rapture from the passages that refer to the Revelation. Essential to Dispensationalism is this compartmentalization of Scripture.

The problem with this division of the Scriptures is that they never speak of returns but always the return. They never refer to His comings, but to His coming. The Lord’s return is always, without exception, spoken of in the singular. It is never referred to in the plural. One will search the Scriptures in vain seeking to find the Lord’s Second Coming spoken of in any manner except in the singular. There will not be two returns, three returns, four returns, or more, but only one return. There will not be two stages of the return, just one return. On this the Scriptures are plain and unified. How can anyone pluralize what God has singularized?

In the following passages, regardless of the terminology used, the Second Coming of Christ is always spoken of or referred to in the singular:

    For the Son of Man will come (erchomai) in the glory of His Father (Matt. 16:27);

    What will be the sign of Your coming (parousia) (Matt. 24:3);

    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming
    (parousia) of the Son of Man be (Matt. 24:27);

    Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear (phaiomai) in heaven, and then all the tribes
    of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming (erchomai) on the clouds
    of heaven with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30; Mk. 13:26; Lu. 21:27);

    so also will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be (Matt. 24:37, 39);

    you do not know what hour your Lord is coming (erchomai) (Matt. 24:42; Mk. 13:35);

    the Son of Man is coming (erchomai) at an hour you do not expect (Matt. 24:44);

    you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming (erchomai)
    (Matt. 25:13);

    When the Son of Man comes (erchomai) in His glory (Matt. 25:31; Mk. 13:32);

    You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming (erchomai)
    on the clouds of heaven (Matt. 26:64; Mk. 14:62);

    when He comes (erchomai) in the glory of His Father (Mk. 8:38);

    For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part
    under heaven so also the Son of Man will be in His day (Lu. 17:24);

    Even so it will be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed (apokalupto) (Lu. 17:30);

    In that day (Lu. 17:31);

    When the Son of Man comes (erchomai), will He really find faith on the earth (Lu. 18:8);

    that Day come (ephistemi) on you unexpectedly (Lu. 21:34; “Day” not “Days”);

    I will raise him up at the last day (Jo. 6:40, 44, 54);

    I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day (Jo. 11:24);

    I will come (erchomai) again (Jo. 14:3);

    If I will that he remains till I come (erchomai), what is that to you (Jo. 21:22-23);

    this same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come (erchomai)
    in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven (Acts 1:11; one Ascension and,
    therefore, one return);

    before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord (Acts 2:20);

    waiting for the revelation (apokalupsis) of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:7);

    that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor. 1:8);

    until the Lord comes (erchomai) (1 Cor. 4:5);

    you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes (erchomai) (1 Cor. 11:26);

    those who are Christ’s at His coming (parousia) (1 Cor. 15:23);

    by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30);

    will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:6);

    without offense until the day of Christ (Phil. 1:10);

    that I may rejoice in the day of Christ (Phil. 2:16);

    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior,
    the Lord Jesus Christ (Phil. 3:20);

    when Christ who is our life appears (phaneroo) (Col. 3:4);

    at His coming (parousia) (I Thess. 2:19);

    at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints (I Thess. 3:13);

    we who are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord (I Thess. 4:15);

    For the Lord Himself shall descend (katabaino) from heaven (I Thess. 4:16);

    the day of the Lord so comes (erchomai) as a thief in the night (I Thess. 5:2);

    But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake (katalambano)
    you as a thief (I Thess. 5:4);

    be preserved blameless at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ (I Thess. 5:23);

    when the Lord Jesus is revealed (apokalupsis) from heaven (II Thess. 1:7);

    when He comes (erchomai), in that Day, to be glorified in His saints (II Thess. 1:10);

    concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together
    to Him (II Thess. 2:1);

    as though the day of Christ had come (enistemi) (II Thess. 2:2);

    whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness
    (epiphaneia) of His coming (parousia)  (II Thess. 2:8);

    until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing (epiphaneia) (1 Tim. 6:14);

    He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day (II Tim. 1:12);

    that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day (II Tim. 1:18);

    God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead
    at His appearing (epiphaneia) and His kingdom (II Tim. 4:1);

    which the Lord, the righteous Judge will give to me on that Day, and not to me only
    but also to all who have loved His appearing (epiphaneia) (II Tim. 4:8);

    looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing (epiphaneia) of our great God
    and Savior Jesus Christ (Tit. 2:13);

    To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear (optomai) a second time,
    apart from sin, for salvation (Heb. 9:28);

    And He who is coming (erchomenos) will come (heko) (Heb. 10:37);

    until the coming (parousia) of the Lord (Ja. 5:7);

    for the coming (parousia) of the Lord is at hand (Ja. 5:8);

    at the revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ (I Pet. 1:7);

    the grace that is to be brought you at the revelation (apokalupsis)
    of Jesus Christ (I Pet. 1:13);

    when His glory is revealed (apokalupsis) (I Pet. 4:13);

    when the Chief Shepherd appears (phaneroo) (I Pet. 5:4);

    where is the promise of His coming (parousia) (2 Pet. 3:4);

    But the day of the Lord will come (heko) as a thief in the night (2 Pet. 3:10);

    looking for and hastening the coming (parousia) of the day of God (II Pet. 3:12);

    when He appears (phaneroo), we may have confidence and not be ashamed
    before Him at His coming (parousia) (I Jo. 2:28);

    we know that when He is revealed (phaneroo), we shall be like Him (I Jo. 3:2);

    He is coming (erchomai) with clouds (Rev. 1:7);

    Behold, I am coming (erchomai as a thief (Rev. 16:15);

    Behold, I am coming (erchomai) quickly (Rev. 22:7).

I don’t know if it qualifies for two comings or maybe it is just technically one coming because he never reaches Earth both times, but it seems logical to me....

-rapture is when he comes in the clouds, doesn’t reach Earth (so maybe not really considered a coming)

-second coming in power with armies behind him....lands on Mt of Olives, just as when He left

[simplejeff]

On 12/17/2017 at 7:00 AM, Justin Adams said:

Do you not know history? That all the rapture stuff is Jesuit in origin? So much of Rome's early stuff is practiced today by an unknowing 'reformed' so-called 'protestant' faith. It just boggles my mind!

Yes,  so much was re-written,  and infiltrated all the countries and almost all the churches.   People grew up being taught lies all their lives,   what can they do now ?   Who can save them from deception they were immersed in all their lives growing up ?

[Spock]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:15 PM, Quasar93 said:

Still kickin'!  Just like a live mule, as the saying goes!  LOL

 

Quasar93

Have you thought of changing your name to Quasar94?

You are awesome and thank you for your service to our country. 

[Spock]

On 12/1/2017 at 8:02 PM, Dennis1209 said:

My condensed version might read something like this: Why would the bridegroom severely beat up his bride before their wedding and wedding supper? The catching away (Rapture) almost exactly mirrors a traditional Jewish wedding. Everything from the preparation of the dwelling at his fathers house, to the wait, watching, unexpected arrival of the bridegroom to snatch his bride in secret, taking her to his fathers house whom he prepared for her, to the wedding feast and celebration. It appears to be an exact match.

Nice metaphor, Dennis.

it makes sense to me, God’s wrath is not meant for the bride of Christ because hasn’t Christ done enough to pay for our sins?

so what is the GT for if it is not for the bride?

ahhhhh, how about purging Israel for their unbelief, and spanking a whole lot of unbelievers. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Spock

[Spock]

On 12/1/2017 at 8:23 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I totally believe in the pre- tribulation Rapture and it's seen in many places in scripture.

But here's one thing that's never been explained to my satisfaction.

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. [emphasis mine]

Taken in context to whom Jesus is talking to, I'm wondering what this verse is telling us?

Anyone? Anyone?

This is a favorite verse of the PARTIAL rapture proponents.  By that I mean, only the believers who are watching, waiting, ready, and praying get to experience the rapture. The others get to experience a little Tribulation to cleanse them from their worldliness and Luke warmness.  Thus, only the Philadelphia type believers will be spared from the hour of trouble, not the others. 

I didn’t say I believe this, just sayin.  But I will be honest, I have wondered about this too- if only some believers get raptured, but I can’t put my support behind something that is not clear enough through the scriptures.