Skeleton Rapture Crew

[ForHisGlory37]

12 minutes ago, brotherdon said:

Jesus said its the sick that need a doctor not the well Matthew 9:12, He did not come to call the righteous, but the sinner to repentance, Matthew 9:13

I think that saying was true when Jesus came the first time to die on the cross for us.  He came as a Savior.  But when Jesus comes back the second time, He will be coming back not as a Lamb, but as Judge.  That is why He called us to be holy because He is Holy. 

[Unfailing Presence]

20 minutes ago, Diaste said:

True. But you are assuming the church is pure, righteous, faithful and obedient. This assumption is incorrect. Half of Christian's can't even be faithful to their marriage vows, and much less, one would suppose, to the word of God. Just look at the allegations of corruption surrounding the Christian leaders of the church all across the world. Yes, God will never abandon the faithful, ever. However, speaking for the entire group and generally promoting unshaken faithful and obedient behavior of the entire body is illogical, and incorrect.

There are only Two groups of people on the earth , the saved and the lost .

That you assert  the saved in Christ are in  need of something more than trusting the blood bought salvation to be clothed in the righteous of Christ leaves me speechless .

 

                                        " The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in ,from this time forth , and even for evermore . "

                                               ( Psalm 121 : 8 )

[ForHisGlory37]

1 minute ago, Unfailing Presence said:

There are only Two groups of people on the earth , the saved and the lost .

That you assert  the saved in Christ are in  need of something more than trusting the blood bought salvation to be clothed in the righteous of Christ leaves me speechless .

 

                                        " The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in ,from this time forth , and even for evermore . "

                                               ( Psalm 121 : 8 )

The parable of the 10 virgins are a good illustration.  They were all believers.  But the five were foolish and were not keeping watch, didn't have enough oil ( I tend to think this is the lukewarm Christian who is not living holy, seeking the Father daily, trusting and relying on Him, etc.) The wise virgins told the foolish to "buy your oil" (spiritual food i.e. Holy Spirit)  They did not do that.  They weren't ready, so when the Bridegroom came, they were left out and when they tried to get in, He told them to depart, for He never knew them.  Who do you think the foolish virgins were?  It sounded like they were believers too.  I think people are going to willingly give up their "crown of life" or salvation because they will be terrified of what is coming and during tribulation .  If they had daily walked with the Lord and always daily read, meditated, prayed, worshiped, they would be prepared (just like the wise virgins with the oil in their lamps) (for the Word of God is a lamp unto my feet) . 

[Quasar93]

1 hour ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16 -  The FIRST of His TWO comings??!!! 

That saying is just absolutely ABSURD!  There is only ONE SECOND COMING!!!!  Your interpretation of scripture is heresy.  That is why the pre-trib rapture is a LIE.  It cannot hold up to the Word of God.

Try reading what you quoted me again, that refute you.  Yes, Jesus only comes to the earth one more time, WITH HIS CHURCH He CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the sky seven years before, as the Scriptures have documented below:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.
 

Quasar93

 

[Unfailing Presence]

16 minutes ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

  I think people are going to willingly give up their "crown of life" or salvation because they will be terrified of what is coming and during tribulation .

My thoughts are different . 

To me , to attain salvation is to attain & understand the fundamental  truth of Christ - to be in Him , and to have Him in us . A life possessed of the Incarnate Word .

A life that is no longer your own , but has become one with the heart and Creator of the universe . With the Power that made us .

That you conceive  the will to "give up " to be an  alternate power , capable  of jettisoning the Lord of Glory from His possession is completely foreign to me . 

                                                    " If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His ."     ( Romans 8:9 ) 

[Quasar93]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Matt 24. Not my conclusion. Jesus said it. 2 Thess 2:1-7. Not my conclusion. Paul said it. But lets move on to refutation.

"The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In Matt 24:30 Jesus comes in the clouds, just as 1 Thess 4:17 says. If this when the gathering happens then it occurs after the A of D, as Jesus said. But lets post more of 1 Thess 4. Verse 16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"  Well, this isn't going to be a secret coming with all the shouting and the trumpet and the voice of the archangel. This looks a lot like Matt 24:30-31. "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet"

In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28!

In the first of His two comings? You mean the second of His three comings don't you? Cause the first coming was in the form of a child born of woman. You sure you read the bible? Anyway, your proof offers no timing of any such pre-coming, where there is clear timing in Matt 24:30-31 and 2 Thess 2:3, after the A of D. Where is any mention of the timing of your pre-coming? With explicit timing established in Matt and 2 Thess why should we believe in another coming and another gathering sans explicit testimony?

From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8!

This is an assumption. There is no proof the church is in heaven at this point. The great company of the elect is seen in heaven in Rev 7, in my opinion between the 5th and 6th seals. What leads anyone to think John represents the church? Got any scripture explicitly stating John is the church? Ok, lets post your reference:

2 Thess 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

How in the name of Jesus does John representing the church confirm the above? This passage actually proves the gathering and the Day of the Lord only occur after the beast is revealed.

 While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.

Rev 19:7-8 "

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." How is this the tribulation? You said, "...tribulation...recorded in Rev 19:7-8." This don't look anything like tribulation. But that's what you said.

From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!" Nah, not the church. Immediately before this the church is depicted as a beautiful pure bride and then she's going to war? That stretched credulity, even for the Pretrib ideology. The armies here are the angels. Angels are also clothed in white linen.

 "No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

Really? Cause in Matt 24 Jesus appears in the clouds and the angels gather the elect. Where are these gathered elect meeting Jesus? Coffee shop? This is the 2nd coming isn't it? Right there in Matt 24. Says it pretty clearly. First the sign, the Jesus appears in the clouds, the angels gather the elect...Pretty much just like 1 Thess 4:16. And who are these gathered elect? They came out of great tribulation, that's the order Jesus presents in Matt 24. If this is the 2nd coming and Rev 19 is the 2nd coming then I would have to say just before the war commences the elect are gathered meeting Christ in the air as He is revealed from heaven.

No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth

Do you mean the 3rd coming? Cause you said there was a 2nd coming 7 years previous. That would make this the third. And I don't think there's any explicit scripture proving this idea. As I see it, pretrib ignores explicit scripture clearly revealing the truth and uses implication and assumption to further the ideology. For instance, the entirety of Matt 24 is always absent from pretrib arguments. Why?

 

 

 

Negative!  Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24, and counter gospels of Mark 13 and Luke 21 are EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6..  

The Church DID NOT  exist them, because the Holy Spirit had not come yet, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, tem days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Your attempt to take the teachings of Paul, in Thess.4:13-18 to the Church, and attach it to Jesus Olivet Discourse, addressed to Israel, is completely exegetical error!  You deliberately reject the Scriptures that refute what you attempt to interpret them as saying. in the following:

 

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

 

Reviews the Scriptural chronological order of end time events in the following post, to correct the record.
 

Quasar93

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Quasar93

[Quasar93]

12 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Negative!  Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24, and counter gospels of Mark 13 and Luke 21 are EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6..  

The Church DID NOT  exist them, because the Holy Spirit had not come yet, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, tem days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Your attempt to take the teachings of Paul, in Thess.4:13-18 to the Church, and attach it to Jesus Olivet Discourse, addressed to Israel, is completely exegetical error!  You deliberately reject the Scriptures that refute what you attempt to interpret them as saying. in the following:

 

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

 

Reviews the Scriptural chronological order of end time events in the following post, to correct the record.
 

Quasar93

 

The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


Quasar

Last edited by quasar.deeperwalk on 13 Dec 2016 10:42, edited 3 times in total.

[Daniel 11:36]

You might as well stop arguing

The Lord will first come for His own, and then He will bring the tribulation period which will last for 7 years

Believe what you want, however this is the way it will be [Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17]

[Quasar93]

5 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

You might as well stop arguing

The Lord will first come for His own, and then He will bring the tribulation period which will last for 7 years

Believe what you want, however this is the way it will be [Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17]

As you can see, your assessment is exactly what I have been posting all along.  It would be delightful to stop arguing with people who are unable to concede the scriptural facts I post about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church that refutes their false views.

 

Quasar93

[ForHisGlory37]

56 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

My thoughts are different . 

To me , to attain salvation is to attain & understand the fundamental  truth of Christ - to be in Him , and to have Him in us . A life possessed of the Incarnate Word .

A life that is no longer your own , but has become one with the heart and Creator of the universe . With the Power that made us .

That you conceive  the will to "give up " to be an  alternate power , capable  of jettisoning the Lord of Glory from His possession is completely foreign to me . 

                                                    " If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His ."     ( Romans 8:9 ) 

The Book of Revelation says many times, "he that endures to the end."  Let me ask this, do you think a lukewarm Christian will be able to stand in the face of let's say someone who is threatening their kids' (or some other loved one) life with torture, beating, rape, or murder unless they renounced Jesus?  That's what happened to those kids in Syria, they were told to renounce their faith in Jesus or they would get beheaded.  They chose to be beheaded.  What about the Christians here in America?  Our faith has never been tested like that YET.  Just because it is completely foreign to you, doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible for a lukewarm Christian who never really took the time to have that really trusting and personal relationship with Jesus to renounce their faith in Jesus.  Do you think that would be possible for a lukewarm Christian to renounce their faith in the face of torture, murder, rape?