Skeleton Rapture Crew

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

Thank you for your input and extensive presentation of meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support to verify your claims. 

Insults? Excellent.

First of all, let me introduce myself to you: My qualifications I earned to teach the Bible came from: Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas TX.  I have participated on Christian discussion forums for the better part of 20 years including my own.  I am a 94 year pld WWII Vet who has studied the Bible for 80 years.

As if qualifications make you correct. Just because you have letters after your name does not automatically make what you say truthful. For instance, in the NT there was a religious group that had many educated, experienced men, well on in years, more well versed in scripture than most living men, and the young upstart, Jesus, barely 30 years old, proved them all wrong. Lets have fact, not tactics.

And where may I ask did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?  The following is the Biblical description of the pre-trib rpture of the Church, taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you infer, are all liars:  You have made a complete hash out ofmy post I provided with Scriptural proof fr the pre-trib rapture of the Church with your opinionated editorial guesswork in it

I have no qualifications. I only repeat what the Living God has said. And you really provided no 'proof'. I have seen this same thing for nearly 40 years and it's always the same; only one verse or fragment is offered as 'proof', passages are chopped up removing context, entire chapters are ignored, and the conclusion comes before the evidence. But lets dig in again, shall we? I think it better at this point to refute the pretrib arguments. This will show the truth and at the same time forever remove the possibility of a pretrib rapture.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.
Again, the above does not show timing, it's only proof of a gathering, with which I fully agree; there is a gathering.
Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

'Escape' in this passage means to 'flee away'. This is an individual action taken by the individual in question, not a 'removal from one place to another' of either an individual or group. To wit:

ekpheugó: to flee away

Original Word: ἐκφεύγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpheugó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-fyoo'-go)
Short Definition: I flee out, away, I escape
Definition: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

Does not prove a pretrib 'rapture' and in fact refutes the idea of an entire group being whisked away in secret.

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

Yes, I agree, without a shed of doubt in my entire being, there is a gathering of all believers, dead first, then the living, that happens in a moment as we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, transported to heaven, changed into immortality; yes, it's all true and I cannot wait for this to happen. But there is still no evidence of timing in any of the references you offer to this point. The only thing you're proving is that a gathering will happen; and I agree 100%.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

There is nothing in 1 Thess 4:13-14 that says anything about returning from heaven to earth. This short passage assures the believers that the dead in Christ will be raised, as this was a major issue for the believers. Do you think I'm not checking every word for veracity? I am.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word

[Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], A conclusion before fact is established. Verses 2-4 only say  we will be with Jesus in mansions of glory, no timing is offered nor implied. The same with v 28. Jesus only iterates the statement from v 2-4 declaring that we will be gathered to Him, to His Father's house, and he has told us before the event occurs. Where is the timing and the shroud of secrecy assumed by pretrib?

we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

Disputable as to the timing of the raising of the dead but I won't rebut.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

Pretty sure you got the above wrong but I want to see you prove timing of a pretrib rapture, so it doesn't matter at this point.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].
Ah, the major conflation error of the pretrib doctrine. This is where Matt 24 lays aside all doubt about the timing and order of the end of the age. Pretrib thought must ignore this entire chapter as well as most of Mark 13 and Luke 21. The whole "cloud" thing is very important, lets go back... First, Jesus never likens the last week with either 'tribulation' or 'great tribulation'. Jesus specifically says great tribulation only begins with the causal event of the A of D, Matt 24:15-21. The period before the A of D is called "the beginning of sorrows." Matt 24:8. Still not equating the entire last week with the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord only begins after the sign of the coming of the son of man as recorded in Matt 24:19-30 and confirmed in Rev 6:12-17. Further, 2 Thess 2:1-4 states unequivocally the Day of the Lord cannot occur until the man of sin is revealed by sitting in the Temple and proclaiming himself to be god. This is the midpoint of the week and the Day of the Lord has still not happened, according to Paul.

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

No, The day of the Lord is not 'triggered' by confirming the covenant. 2 Thess 2:1-4,

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 

Pretrib is in error as Paul says in the above the Day of the Lord only follows the apostasy, which we are in the midst of, and the the revealing of the man of sin. The short order is:     A of D, great tribulation, the Sign, the appearance, the gathering of the elect and then the day of the Lord's wrath.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] Objection. Supposition refuted by the words of Jesus and Paul. Just because you say it's true does not make it true. Post scripture that explicitly says the last week is equivalent to the Day of the Lord, and the seven year tribulation. Both or either. Jesus says tribulation is only in the last half of the week and never says it's in the beginning of the week or the whole week, per Matt 24.

"15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." 

As you can see, only after the A of D comes the tribulation. No other order is possible and neither can the entire last week be equated with 'tribulation'.

will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

You really need to do the leg work on stuff like this. Apostasia is defined as, 

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

This repetition of terrible reasoning has become the standard of Pretrib analysis. To prove the unprovable Pretrib thought must redefine terms. What you don't realize is  you are claiming the wrong definition for apostasia. Pretrib has defined apostasia using the definition of aphistemi, "leave", "depart", the roots of which imply 'desertion'. Pretrib latches on to the term 'departure' in the definition of aphistemi as if to prove a removal from one place to another. Sadly this falls very short. Worse it's a deliberate deception as the term used in 2 Thess 2:3 is 'apostasia', which is 'revolt' or 'defection' and has nothing to do with a departure from one place to another.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Not as clever as you think. The original Koine Greek has the word 'apostasia' in 2 Thess 2:3. I have the text. The definition of apostasia has not changed since the time of the writing right to the present day. Another deliberate deception trying to change the meaning of the original text.

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

It's because the KJV scribes set the record straight. From what I read about some earlier works they were fraught with error as generally agreed by modern biblical and Greek scholars.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

No. I have a thread on this. It's actually the revealing of the beast that is hindering the day of Christ. We can take this up at some other time.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

No. See above.

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

But you didn't offer any explicit scriptural timing of the gathering of the elect. Both Jesus and Paul tell us the gathering of the elect occurs only after the revealing of the beast at the midpoint. Jesus is explicit in Matt 24 saying the gathering occurs after the sign of the coming of the son of man and His appearance in the clouds. Paul is likewise explicit in 2 Thess 2 saying the day of Christ and our gathering together to Him occurs after the man of sin sits in the Temple proclaiming himself god. Where is the explicit scripture that shows a gathering of millions several years before this?


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar93

 

 

 

 

[Unfailing Presence]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The Roman church killed between 50 and 80 million Christian people according to historical records.

(Lyons 415). Children were given special attention. Before long the now familiar Jesuit saying was coined “Give me a child until he is seven, and he will remain Catholic the rest of his life.” This is because of the coordinated program of persuasion i.e. brainwashing with the Roman Catholic goals and beliefs.

So there have been a great number of Christian deaths.

And there have probably been just as many Christians slain around the world since  for their faith .

This is part of  the tribulation of the "WORLD"  Jesus says ALL those who love Him will experience on some level , to include death .

News flash ,  there were Christians killed today .

This is a world under a curse , but not yet under " judgement " 

The persecutions of today are quite individual to each believer , not an entire generation at once , in the midst of God's pronounced world wide judgement . 

Two completely different situations .

It is obvious you , and others ,  are trying to piece meal this theory together  mixing apples and oranges in some muddy theological man made  water . 

 

[Unfailing Presence]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

At least you understand tribulation is judgment. Now you just need the understanding judgment begins at the house of God, us.

Pray tell, what is the judgment of the tribulation's true purpose?

The tribulation judgement is  not about " weeding out pretenders " .

They have already been weeded .

" The time of Jacob's distress " is about the world finally being able to establish  " peace "   as it sees fit , with a leader they see fit ,  free of the hated Christians and their narrow

minded King Jesus  .

And then suffering the consequences of it in Judgement  .

[Unfailing Presence]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

 No group of people is pure of heart to the last soul. To assert the Church walks in total purity is to deny reality.

There are only two groups of people , now and forever  .   

The saved and the lost . 

Muddying the water does nothing to help your assertions  .

 

[Quasar93]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

No!  My response to you are not insults, but rather rebukes for your failure to support your opinions with verifying Scripture.  In a formal debate, they are not only meaningless, but also worthless in the scoring.

Nothing has changed since my last post providing Scriptural support exposing your views, full of opinion that is completely meaningless without support of Scripture to verify them.  It is clear, if Jesus were to return and provide you precisely with what He inspired to be written in His word, recorded below, you would be arguing with Him that it is false as you are with me.  But you are unable to fiels a Scripturally based argument to prove your case: {It is unfortunate the posts and threads are not numbered, or I would be able to refer you to the last time it was posted, instead of having to post it again]  Either firld a Scripturally based argument for your views in your claim to refute them, or it is abundantly clear, your views are those that are false, as proven by the Scriptures.

 

 

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

 

The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

 

 

Quasar93

Edited December 10, 2017 by Quasar93

[Quasar93]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Well then the church existed since at least the time of King David.

 

Psalm 51:11

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

King David had the Spirit of God as did others well before Jesus walked the earth as a man. Lots of evidence for this just in the OT prophets. No one was able to be saved at any time in history without the Holy Ghost, nor sans repentance. I suppose you believe that the sacrifices of animals in the OT is what actually saved souls.

Provide me with Scriptural support, the Christian Church existed at any time during OT times.  The New Covenant that was fulfilled by Jesus, when He shed His blood and died on a cross, taking the sins of the world away, for all who sought Him.  The Christian Church was founded by Jesus, at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, when the Holy Spirit arrived through the Grace of God, for anyone believing in Jesus Christ.  In OT times, God provided the Holy Spirit only to those He Chose to provide Him to. 

 

 

Quasar93

[inchrist]

13 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

There is no Church without the Holy Spirit.  As I previously posted, Jesus ministry in His first advent ws exclusively to Israel, recorded in Mt.15:24,  The Church did not exist then,

Again how can you persist in denying the Church never existed, when scripture states Christ sang Gods name in th3 midst of his Church?

Let me explain Pentecost, because I have the exact equivalent in the OT

Solomon built a temple, it was complete and existed prior to the time the visible glory of God filled the temple.

It was a real temple fitted for the worship and service of God, lacking only the visible Presence of God ( 1 Kings: 8).

And Christs Church, prior to Pentecost, was a real, functioning Church, lacking only the manifestation of the glory and power of God which came on that Day of Pentecost.  

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by inchrist

[missmuffet]

You are right Quasar.

Question: "When did the church begin/start?"

Answer: The church began on the Day of Pentecost, fifty days after the Passover when Jesus died and rose again. The word translated “church” comes from two Greek words that together mean “called out from the world for God.” The word is used throughout the Bible to refer to all those who have been born again (John 3:3) through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 10:9–10). The word church, when used to reference all believers everywhere, is synonymous with the term Body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22–23; Colossians 1:18).

The word church first appears in Matthew 16 when Jesus tells Peter, “On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” (verse 18). The “rock” here is the statement Peter had made, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (verse 16). That truth about Jesus is the bedrock of the church that has flourished for over two thousand years. Everyone who makes that truth the foundation of his or her own life becomes a member of Jesus’ church (Acts 16:31).

Jesus’ words, “I will build my church,” were a foretelling of what was about to happen when He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers (John 15:26–27; 16:13). Jesus still had to undergo the cross and experience the resurrection. Although the disciples understood in part, the fulfillment of all Jesus had come to do had not yet been accomplished. After His resurrection Jesus would not allow His followers to begin the work He had given them, to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19–20), until the Holy Spirit had come (Acts 1:4–5).

The book of Acts details the beginning of the church and its miraculous spread through the power of the Holy Spirit. Ten days after Jesus ascended back into heaven (Acts 1:9), the Holy Spirit was poured out upon 120 of Jesus’ followers who waited and prayed (Acts 1:15; 2:1–4). The same disciples who had quaked in fear of being identified with Jesus (Mark 14:30, 50) were suddenly empowered to boldly proclaim the gospel of the risen Messiah, validating their message with miraculous signs and wonders (Acts 2:4, 38–41; 3:6–7; 8:7). Thousands of Jews from all parts of the world were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. They heard the gospel in their own languages (Acts 2:5–8), and many believed (Acts 2:41; 4:4). Those who were saved were baptized, adding daily to the church. When persecution broke out, the believers scattered, taking the gospel message with them, and the church spread like wildfire to all parts of the known earth (Acts 8:4; 11:19–21).

The start of the church involved Jews in Jerusalem, but the church soon spread to other people groups. The Samaritans were evangelized by Philip in Acts 8. In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision that helped him understand that the message of salvation was not limited to the Jews but open to anyone who believed (Acts 10:34–35, 45). The salvation of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26–39) and the Italian centurion Cornelius (Acts 10) convinced the Jewish believers that God’s church was broader than they had imagined. The miraculous calling of Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1–19) set the stage for an even greater spread of the gospel to the Gentiles (Romans 15:16; 1 Timothy 2:7).

Jesus’ prophetic words to Peter before the crucifixion have proved true. Though persecution and “the gates of Hades” have fought against it, the church only grows stronger. Revelation 7:9 provides a glimpse of the church as God designed it to be: “After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” The church that Jesus began will continue until the day He comes for us (John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17) and we are united with Him forever as His bride (Ephesians 5:27; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7).

https://www.gotquestions.org/when-did-the-church-begin.html

[Quasar93]

16 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Again how can you persist in denying the Church never existed, when scripture states Christ sang Gods name in th3 midst of his Church?

Let me explain Pentecost, because I have the exact equivalent in the OT

Solomon built a temple, it was complete and existed prior to the time the visible glory of God filled the temple.

It was a real temple fitted for the worship and service of God, lacking only the visible Presence of God ( 1 Kings: 8).

And Christs Church, prior to Pentecost, was a real, functioning Church, lacking only the manifestation of the glory and power of God which came on that Day of Pentecost.  

 

The Christian Church was founded with the advent of the Holy Spirit and fulfillment of the New Covenant, from which there is no option.  There is nothing whatever in the OT pertaining to Pentecost, except the prophecy in Jer.21:21-34, pertaining to the New Covenant.  Tell me, what do you think the word church means, as it appears in the Bible?

 

Quasar93

[inchrist]

13 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

I'm am interested in learning as much as I can about this point of view about having an entire population stand as " protected " witnesses to the greatest slaughter the 

world has ever seen that I do not understand .

Would they not be  " protected " if they were raptured away as well  ,  yes , no  ?

So then you must have some spiritually discerned knowledge of the holy purpose for which God would want these " protected"  to witness the horror never before or never again 

to be witnessed . 

What is it ? 

I actually do...

What you describe is a dereliction of duty.

Why would God have us "protected" outta here, when the world needs us the most?

If just one soul could be persuaded not to succumb to the Antichrist, any cost or sacrifice would be worthwhile? Yes or no? (since you wish to play this type of game)

God still lives to his promise of protection even if we are killed.

Christ stated Greater love has no man than this: that a man would lay down his life for a friend.

Why would we NOT want to be here?

It is your failed understanding of "protection" that is flawed with this argument.