Comma placement

[IvyLynn]

It does not seem appropriate, there­fore, to conclude that Jesus promised the penitent thief that they would be together in Paradise the day they died. If the comma is placed before the adverb “today,” it becomes virtually impos­sible to reconcile the passage with what the Bible—and Jesus Himself—teaches concerning the time when the faithful dead get their final reward in heaven (cf. Luke 14:13, 14; 20:34–38; John 5:28, 29; 6:39, 40, 53–58). There is not a single instance in which the Bible writers try to comfort the believers by saying that the dead in Christ have already been taken to heaven. Comfort in the face of death is always related to the resurrection, not to the idea that at death the spirit or the soul is liberated from the body to be in God’s presence (cf. John 11:21–27; Rev. 20:6).

On the other hand, if we read “today” with the preceding verb, Jesus’ statement may indeed sound some­what pleonastic in modern, Western languages, but this pleonasm becomes fully acceptable if understood as an idiomatic way to emphasize the sig­nificance of the announcement: “Truly, I tell you today . . .” Finally, there is also enough evidence that this way of under­standing the passage is neither new nor illegitimate, as this shows exactly how important segments of the church understood it, even in a time when the belief on the immortality of the soul had already become predominant in Christianity. What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever (John 14:1–3; 1 Thess. 4:16, 17; Rev. 21:1–4).

[IvyLynn]

I mentioned this yesterday and another member questioned what I was referencing...

so here it is

[wingnut-]

18 minutes ago, IvyLynn said:

It does not seem appropriate, there­fore, to conclude that Jesus promised the penitent thief that they would be together in Paradise the day they died. If the comma is placed before the adverb “today,” it becomes virtually impos­sible to reconcile the passage with what the Bible—and Jesus Himself—teaches concerning the time when the faithful dead get their final reward in heaven (cf. Luke 14:13, 14; 20:34–38; John 5:28, 29; 6:39, 40, 53–58). There is not a single instance in which the Bible writers try to comfort the believers by saying that the dead in Christ have already been taken to heaven. Comfort in the face of death is always related to the resurrection, not to the idea that at death the spirit or the soul is liberated from the body to be in God’s presence (cf. John 11:21–27; Rev. 20:6).

On the other hand, if we read “today” with the preceding verb, Jesus’ statement may indeed sound some­what pleonastic in modern, Western languages, but this pleonasm becomes fully acceptable if understood as an idiomatic way to emphasize the sig­nificance of the announcement: “Truly, I tell you today . . .” Finally, there is also enough evidence that this way of under­standing the passage is neither new nor illegitimate, as this shows exactly how important segments of the church understood it, even in a time when the belief on the immortality of the soul had already become predominant in Christianity. What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever (John 14:1–3; 1 Thess. 4:16, 17; Rev. 21:1–4).

 

Of course the issue with this attempt is that Jesus said many, many times, "Truly I tell you", and not once in all of scripture does he follow it with the word today.  It would be nonsensical to say, as obviously He is speaking to them in that day, under each of these circumstances.  While Greek does not use punctuation, not once in all of the translations do you find any Greek scholar placing the comma anywhere else.  As someone who understands Greek, there is a reason for that, and it is because the comma is exactly where it should be.

God bless

[IvyLynn]

No commas originally my friend 

 

[IvyLynn]

1 minute ago, IvyLynn said:

No commas originally my friend 

 

The comma, for example, was introduced as late as the ninth century

[IvyLynn]

1 minute ago, IvyLynn said:

The comma, for example, was introduced as late as the ninth century

Punctuation marks, therefore, are not an integral part of the canonical text. In fact, they reveal only how the text was read and understood by those who copied it. So, when Luke 23:43 was punctuated, the comma was placed before sēmeron not for grammatical reasons, but for the theological conviction prevailing at the time that the final reward of the faithful who die comes immediately after death. Sometimes the scribes also rephrased the text in order to make its meaning supposedly clearer. This is how the word that (hoti) became part of Jesus’ statement. “That” was not in the original but was added before the adverb (“Truly I tell you that today . . .”) under the assumption that this is what Jesus meant; this addition appears in a number of medieval Greek manuscripts as well as in several ancient and modern translations. 

[IvyLynn]

19 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Luke 23:43 NASB
[43] And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

 

Right, no commas in the Greek but it would be redundant to mean 'Today I say unto you' when of course it was that day Jesus was speaking.

Chi

 

22 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Luke 23:43 NASB
[43] And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

 

Right, no commas in the Greek but it would be redundant to mean 'Today I say unto you' when of course it was that day Jesus was speaking.

I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. Christ did not promise that the thief should be with Him in Paradise that day. He Himself did not go that day to Paradise. He slept in the tomb, and on the morning of the resurrection He said, “I am not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). . . . “Today” while dying upon the cross as a malefactor, Christ assures the poor sinner, Thou shalt be with Me in Paradise.

[Jayne]

It seems to me that the question is not the comma, but the definition of paradise.

I just at Luke 23:43 looked at Biblehub.com, which will give you the verse in a MULTITUDE of translations, and they all had the comma [or semi-colon] there.

Whether from the Alexandrian Text or the Byzantine, Majority Text or Alexandrian or the rest of the texts from where the different translations come from:  King James vs. ESB vs. the rest, they all seem to put a comma there.

To me, that begs the question.....why?

[IvyLynn]

7 minutes ago, Jayne said:

It seems to me that the question is not the comma, but the definition of paradise.

I just at Luke 23:43 looked at Biblehub.com, which will give you the verse in a MULTITUDE of translations, and they all had the comma [or semi-colon] there.

Whether from the Alexandrian Text or the Byzantine, Majority Text or Alexandrian or the rest of the texts from where the different translations come from:  King James vs. ESB vs. the rest, they all seem to put a comma there.

To me, that begs the question.....why?

The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

[IvyLynn]

13 minutes ago, Jayne said:

It seems to me that the question is not the comma, but the definition of paradise.

I just at Luke 23:43 looked at Biblehub.com, which will give you the verse in a MULTITUDE of translations, and they all had the comma [or semi-colon] there.

Whether from the Alexandrian Text or the Byzantine, Majority Text or Alexandrian or the rest of the texts from where the different translations come from:  King James vs. ESB vs. the rest, they all seem to put a comma there.

To me, that begs the question.....why?

To help establish the meaning of Jesus’ statement on the cross, we acknowledge the importance of con­sidering the overall biblical teaching concerning the time when the saved will receive their reward in Paradise. By “Paradise,” there should be no ques­tion that Jesus meant heaven (2 Cor. 12:2–4) or the eternal habitation of the redeemed in the New Jerusalem in which the tree of life and the throne of God will be found (Rev. 2:7; 22:1–5).18 In another passage, Jesus refers to the many dwelling places in God’s house and to the time when He will come again to take His own to Himself (John 14:1–3). Only then will He invite His followers to inherit the kingdom prepared for them since the beginning of the world (Matt. 25:31–34). This event will be a glorious moment of reunion in which the final and complete celebration of deliverance from sin will take place (Luke 22:14–18).

Paul teaches that the believers who die will come forth from their graves at Jesus’ second coming (1 Cor. 15:20–23), and then the gift of immortality will be bestowed on them (vv. 51–55). He never tries to comfort the living by saying that the deceased are already with Jesus in heaven. On the contrary, he attempts to bring peace to their hearts by reminding them of the resurrection (1 Thess. 4:13– 18; cf. 2 Cor. 1:8–10; Phil. 3:8–11),19 and that only when Jesus comes again both the resurrected righteous and righteous living will be caught up together to meet Him in the air, and so they will be with Him forever (see 1 Thess. 4:17).