Catholic Idolatry

[Guest shiloh357]

41 minutes ago, Ash Tree said:

I just don't really understand this continual insistence of folks who say Catholics (and Orthodox) worship Mary or the Saints. No Catholic (or Orthodox) in their right mind would do that. Worshiping a creature is a mortal sin in Catholicism and an equally extreme sin in Eastern Orthodoxy. 

Catholics and Orthodox love and honor Mary and the saints just like you would love or honor your mother, George Washington, or MLK. Besides, Christ loved his mother with his whole heart. I don't think you can love Mary more than Christ did. 

Catholics and Orthodox do not pray to statues. They pray to the people the statues represent. Praying to a Crucifix does not mean praying to the physical wooden components. It is merely praying to Christ who died on the Cross. It is more of a reminder. 

And praying is not worshiping. Praying is merely asking another person to pray for you to Christ. 

The problem is that when you examine the "prayers"  they are asking for help and guidance and wisdom and so forth.  They are not merely asking for someone to pray for them.  It is much more than that. 

Pope John Paul II professed his total devotion to Mary and prayed to her for healing and credited his healing from the assassination attempt to Mary, not to Jesus.   

They pray to these saints and to Mary for things we are supposed to get from Jesus.   I note that they even pray to Michael the archangel.   What's more, we are told in the book of Hebrews that we can go to the throne of grace directly in order to obtain what we need.  There is no reason to pray to a Saint or to Mary when we have direct access to the very throne of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Goldie said:

The 'Elders' held the bowls.

Read it properly.

But how do you know they are "saints"?

[Ash Tree]

28 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The problem is that when you examine the "prayers"  they are asking for help and guidance and wisdom and so forth.  They are not merely asking for someone to pray for them.  It is much more than that. 

Pope John Paul II professed his total devotion to Mary and prayed to her for healing and credited his healing from the assassination attempt to Mary, not to Jesus.   

They pray to these saints and to Mary for things we are supposed to get from Jesus.   I note that they even pray to Michael the archangel.   What's more, we are told in the book of Hebrews that we can go to the throne of grace directly in order to obtain what we need.  There is no reason to pray to a Saint or to Mary when we have direct access to the very throne of God.

Right, but all good Catholics understand that the gifts originally come from God even if you don't spell it out in the prayer. If it helps a person you can spell out "Mary, please give me the wisdom that comes from God." Or "Mary, ask God to give me wisdom." It's just easier to say, "Mary, give me wisdom." All Catholics know wisdom comes from God. 

The Apostles healed people in Acts. It isn't above Mary to people as well. Just because she's in Heaven doesn't mean she can't perform miracles on God's behalf just like the Apostles did. 

You can go directly to God. But you can also ask people to ask God for your intentions as well. I ask you to pray for me (and I will pray for you). That isn't circumventing God. That's adding more voices to his praise. I can ask Mary to pray for me or ask her to ask God to give me wisdom. Just because you're in Heaven doesn't mean you can't ask God to help those on earth. When I get to heaven, I'm certainly going to pray for the folks on earth (some need it).

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, Ash Tree said:

Right, but all good Catholics understand that the gifts originally come from God even if you don't spell it out in the prayer. If it helps a person you can spell out "Mary, please give me the wisdom that comes from God." Or "Mary, ask God to give me wisdom." It's just easier to say, "Mary, give me wisdom." All Catholics know wisdom comes from God. 

The Apostles healed people in Acts. It isn't above Mary to people as well. Just because she's in Heaven doesn't mean she can't perform miracles on God's behalf just like the Apostles did. 

You can go directly to God. But you can also ask people to ask God for your intentions as well. I ask you to pray for me (and I will pray for you). That isn't circumventing God. That's adding more voices to his praise. I can ask Mary to pray for me or ask her to ask God to give me wisdom. Just because you're in Heaven doesn't mean you can't ask God to help those on earth. When I get to heaven, I'm certainly going to pray for the folks on earth (some need it).

What good does it do for God to give His Word of instruction to us and we ignore it?
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
 

[Ash Tree]

6 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

What good does it do for God to give His Word of instruction to us and we ignore it?
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
 

Well, I suppose I'd better not ask you to pray for me because you'd be interceding on my behalf to God. ;-)

But, seriously, please do pray for me. I need all the help I can get.

[enoob57]

1 minute ago, Ash Tree said:

Well, I suppose I'd better not ask you to pray for me because you'd be interceding on my behalf to God. ;-)

But, seriously, please do pray for me. I need all the help I can get.

that's a clever side step to the truth... no I would be going through Jesus with my prayer like all else are to do!

[Ash Tree]

15 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

that's a clever side step to the truth... no I would be going through Jesus with my prayer like all else are to do!

And that's just what the saints do when we ask them to pray for us. They go straight to Jesus and thru Him to God the Father. 

[enoob57]

1 minute ago, Ash Tree said:

And that's just what the saints do when we ask them to pray for us. They go straight to Jesus and thru Him to God the Father. 

your worship of Mary offended her Son.... 

[Ash Tree]

13 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

your worship of Mary offended her Son.... 

*Sigh*

Catholics don't worship Mary. We love her like Christ loved her. No more, no less. We ask her to ask Christ for our intentions just like we ask our fellow Christians on earth to do the same. 

[enoob57]

39 minutes ago, Ash Tree said:

*Sigh*

Catholics don't worship Mary. We love her like Christ loved her. No more, no less. We ask her to ask Christ for our intentions just like we ask our fellow Christians on earth to do the same. 

I guess you don't read your own papacy dogma... not surprising! but Yes your leadership has clearly stipulated such!