thomas t Posted March 7, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 46 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/05/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1980 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Hi N2thelight, after having had a little break in our discussion, I would like to comment on this statement: On 22.2.2018 at 6:04 AM, n2thelight said: Tell that [we are not going to hell right now] to Christians over in the middle east,who has to renounce Christ or die!!!!! If I got you right, you say this only makes sense in case there is a pre-existence of souls. Otherwise, according to what I understand to be your point, the persecution of Christians wouldn't be just or fair. As One Light put it here, God is not to be blamed for what humans do. Humans have the possibility to make choices he continues. And sometimes humans go as far as to kill other humans, this is what we see. I think this is a very simple explanation of why evil things can occur. So, there's no need to resort to any form of preexistence to explain the occurence of sin in the world (my opinion). Regards, Thomas Edited March 7, 2018 by thomas t grammar (comment 'on') and word ('simple') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 7, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2018 On 3/3/2018 at 12:36 PM, Unfailing Presence said: Got it . Thank You . And this is why I like to look into these things . I have read the passage and I see nothing that refers to the womb 0r before birth . Nothing . It only speaks of his forsaken " heritage " as being a source of God's displeasure . " Was not Esau Jacob's brother ? Saith the Lord yet I have loved Jacob . And I hated Esau and laid his mountains and his HERITAGE waste for the dragons of the wilderness ." ( Malachi 1 : 1-3 ) Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 7, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, thomas t said: Hi N2thelight, after having had a little break in our discussion, I would like to comment on this statement: If I got you right, you say this only makes sense in case there is a pre-existence of souls. Otherwise, according to what I understand to be your point, the persecution of Christians wouldn't be just or fair. As One Light put it here, God is not to be blamed for what humans do. Humans have the possibility to make choices he continues. And sometimes humans go as far as to kill other humans, this is what we see. I think this is a very simple explanation of why evil things can occur. So, there's no need to resort to any form of preexistence to explain the occurence of sin in the world (my opinion). Regards, Thomas My comment was directed to the below On 2/21/2018 at 11:59 PM, n2thelight said: why are we going through hell right now? Simple Jeff We are not going through hell right now. That is another gross error contrary to all Scripture. Edited March 7, 2018 by n2thelight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted March 7, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2018 28 minutes ago, n2thelight said: On 3/3/2018 at 12:36 PM, Unfailing Presence said: Got it . Thank You . And this is why I like to look into these things . I have read the passage and I see nothing that refers to the womb 0r before birth . Nothing . It only speaks of his forsaken " heritage " as being a source of God's displeasure . " Was not Esau Jacob's brother ? Saith the Lord yet I have loved Jacob . And I hated Esau and laid his mountains and his HERITAGE waste for the dragons of the wilderness ." ( Malachi 1 : 1-3 ) Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;" The original passage that is " written " in Malachi makes no reference to Esau being hated in the womb , only his " forsaken heritage " as being the source of God's displeasure . And it also makes clear that hate before birth is not what Paul is referring to either . The emphasis on the womb in topic post being a mis-application of both scriptures . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 7, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said: The original passage that is " written " in Malachi makes no reference to Esau being hated in the womb , only his " forsaken heritage " as being the source of God's displeasure . And it also makes clear that hate before birth is not what Paul is referring to either . The emphasis on the womb in topic post being a mis-application of both scriptures . So do tell,what Paul was referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted March 8, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2018 15 hours ago, n2thelight said: So do tell,what Paul was referring to? Since we are assured from God's Word that there are no infants in hell, and we know from God's Son that " such is the kingdom of God " we know that Paul is not referring to infants or children being the source of God's displeasure . Based upon that I would have to say Paul is speaking of Esau's decision , and God's ability to know Esau's decision before he was ever born . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted March 8, 2018 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said: Since we are assured from God's Word that there are no infants in hell, and we know from God's Son that " such is the kingdom of God " we know that Paul is not referring to infants or children being the source of God's displeasure . Based upon that I would have to say Paul is speaking of Esau's decision , and God's ability to know Esau's decision before he was ever born . So the verse means nothing to you?Okay so let's get a 2nd witness of being known before birth.. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Guessing the above is your same reasoning,God know's everything,well I don't accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfailing Presence Posted March 8, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 170 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2018 6 hours ago, n2thelight said: 8 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said: Since we are assured from God's Word that there are no infants in hell, and we know from God's Son that " such is the kingdom of God " we know that Paul is not referring to infants or children being the source of God's displeasure . Based upon that I would have to say Paul is speaking of Esau's decision , and God's ability to know Esau's decision before he was ever born . So the verse means nothing to you?Okay so let's get a 2nd witness of being known before birth.. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee It means exactly what I said to me . And the verse you supplied here shows that God " knows us " even before we are born , in addition to what decisions we will make as adults . God says He " know us before we are born " , not that He hates us before we are born . This whole question deserves further theological unpacking and I will start a thread based upon it in the " theology " forum . Feel free to meet me over there and we will unpack this whole question further . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluelotus Posted March 17, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 31 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2018 Yes, He said "before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" First, decide who God was talking to/about. Wasn't it Jesus? I think you'll find that so many passages from the Prophets and, only a small exaggeration to say nearly all, the Psalms, the person being spoken to is Jesus. Really, this discussion is unnecessary because, unless I'm mistaken, the only person that matters to God, is Jesus Christ. why else: "Christ in us, the Hope of Glory" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ytLiJC Posted March 20, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 357 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 65 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2018 On 2/20/2018 at 1:18 PM, thomas t said: Dear community, this is a spin-off from another thread. Hi N2thelight, I think you raised an interesting question asking why God hated Esau. The passage concerned is Romans 9:11-13. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Although Esau hasn't been born yet, he was instantly hated by God, as is announced by that passage (my interpretation). And now you ask: " If God knows [...] why are we going through this, that would be an act of a cruel God, yet I know for a fact that He is just..... " My answer to this would be: Esau didn't have a bad life, in my opinion, as he had as many as three wives - Gen 28:9. In my view, even if it's true that God hated Esau determining that he will serve his younger brother... he was given a good life, that's how I read the story. And then you ask (same posting): " Why didn't He kill satan when he rebelled? " God doesn't like to kill, I think. This, in my opinion, is apparent from the fact that in the Garden of Eden there wasn't death - see Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: " Best regards, Thomas the Heavenly Father cannot hate any person/soul at any time - He hates the unsouled sinful person in every (be)souled sinner - the scriptural words "Jacob" and "Esau" are also terms, which is why St Paul says: Romans 9:11-13 (CSB) "though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand — not from works but from the one who calls — she was told, The older will serve the younger. As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau." or as Jesus says: Mark 9:35 (CSB) "If anyone wants to be first, he must be last and servant of all." and ultimately Jacob had tuned out to be humble and worthy to be a servant of overall salvation more than Esau - unfortunately Esau's approach to the practice of religious faith had been too esoteric i.e. having something to do with the world - he was a world spirits hunter (Genesis 25:27) Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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