Is the Pope infallible..?

[ayin jade]

I'm still waiting for you to cite one doctrine that's been CHANGED.

I'll give you one: The Assumption of Mary. It used to be considered heresy, in fact, Pope Gelasius (495 A.D) and Pope Hormisdas (514 A.D) rejected this teaching and declared anyone who taught it heretics. It wasn't until 1950 that Pope Pius XII declared it as official Roman Catholic Doctrine.

So before 11/1/50 any Catholic who believed the Assumption of Mary was considered a heretic by the RCC, but after 11/1/50 any Catholic who doesn't believe it is considered a heretic by the RCC. Hmmm....

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I would like to see Fiosh's response to this post from Tess.

[Assisi]

I'll give you one: The Assumption of Mary. It used to be considered heresy, in fact, Pope Gelasius (495 A.D) and Pope Hormisdas (514 A.D) rejected this teaching and declared anyone who taught it heretics. It wasn't until 1950 that Pope Pius XII declared it as official Roman Catholic Doctrine.

So before 11/1/50 any Catholic who believed the Assumption of Mary was considered a heretic by the RCC, but after 11/1/50 any Catholic who doesn't believe it is considered a heretic by the RCC. Hmmm....

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[vox]

To be full of grace means one is free from all sins and stains. And

[vox]

1- Second, could you point out where in the bible the word Trinity is found? Yet we all believe in the holy Trinity. The same applies to the Immaculate Conception. These are concepts based on the scriptures which were taught by the Church.

2- Thirdly many bible Christians say if it is not in the bible than it can not be true.

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1- Not asking for a word. I'm asking for where the doctrine/principle is found.

2- Um, I believe you're the one who just told me that the IC is in the Bible. That's the reason why I asked about it.

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Vox, I saw the link to New Advent before it was taken away. 

The definition you have was

"To be full of grace means one is free from all sins and stains."

There are several definitions on that website, and I don't see that one.

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Hi Steve, Perhaps what I should have said is that the concept of the Trinity as with the Immaculate Conception are scripturally based, even though both terms aren

[stevehut]

1- I should have said is that the concept of the Trinity as with the Immaculate Conception are scripturally based,

2- full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul

3- In the Catholic encyclopedia it states that: Grace (gratia, Charis), in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation,

4- She is the vessel which carries God in our likeness, she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

5- We see that Mary is the only person in the entire Bible to be called "Blessed art thou among women".

6- Which brings us back to the terms Trinity and Immaculate Conception, these words can not be found in the scriptures.

7- Nevertheless they are contained within the scriptures

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1- Still waiting for the scriptural basis for IC.

2- Funny, I have just consulted several Bible reference books that explain the Greek roots of Bible words. None of them give this definition of grace. More coircular reasoning.

3- Which, I believe, God makes available to all men. So now you're changing the definition?

4- Actually, I believe the Bible says the church is the bride of Christ. And since I believe we both believe in the Trinity, Jesus is the same as the Holy Spirit.

5- Mary was privileged to become the mother of Christ? Um, ya... I believe most Protestants would agree with that...

6- Once again, I didn't ask for a particular word. And I have no argument with the Trinity, please stop tryuing to hard to ptove it.

7- (See #1)

[stevehut]

I just consulted www.traditionalcatholic.net and they had an interesting take on this issue:

"The salutation of the angel Gabriel -- chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma."

Even this Catholic source admits that it proves nothing.

Also, the Greek phrase chaire kecharitomene is obscure and difficult to translate, even for the most accomplished scholars. The rendering "Hail...full of grace" appears only after consulting the Latin Vulgate for a clue. This is far from conclusive, and in any event it still doesn't defend the Catholic definition of "grace".

I have several Bible versions in my home, and none of them translate Luke 1:28 in this way.

[vox]

I just consulted www.traditionalcatholic.net and they had an interesting take on this issue:

"The salutation of the angel Gabriel -- chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma."

Even this Catholic source admits that it proves nothing.

Also, the Greek phrase chaire kecharitomene is obscure and difficult to translate, even for the most accomplished scholars.  The rendering "Hail...full of grace" appears only after consulting the Latin Vulgate for a clue.  This is far from conclusive, and in any event it still doesn't defend the Catholic definition of "grace".

I have several Bible versions in my home, and none of them translate Luke 1:28 in this way.

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Hello Steve, it appears that you are not interested in any informed discussion at all. Sadly what you seems to be doing is bordering on Catholic bashing. Instead of answering questions put to you, you mangle the explanation given and take them out of context. Further more if you have read all the explanation from the New Advent as you claimed you did, it would have been obvious to you there are several explanations concerning grace (which I have also mentioned).

Had you read my reply Post#53 and Post#64 carefully, you would have noticed I have in fact used the same explanation for Luke 1:28 taken from the Catholic Encylopedia or New Advent twice. I even mentioned where the full explanation of the Immaculate Conception can be found.

Would you mind going back and answer some of the questions I posed to you in my earlier threads, because I am still waiting for your answers. Could you please provide some explanations including some evidence to support your various claim. While I can not dictate the manner in which you choose to reply, I thought charity is very much part of Christ

[stevehut]

I understand perfectly well, Vox. And I have no interest in bashing anyone. I just want to find the truth.

But I do have a particular disdain for dishonest reasoning.

I have never seen a non-Catholic scholar place that meaning on the word "grace". It is based upon specious logic and schllarship.

I have never seen a non-Catholic scholar translate Luke 1 in that manner that you described.

To say that "This word means this because we say it does", is simply dishonest.

[vox]

I understand perfectly well, Vox.  And I have no interest in bashing anyone.  I just want to find the truth. 

But I do have a particular disdain for dishonest reasoning. 

I have never seen a non-Catholic scholar place that meaning on the word "grace".  It is based upon specious logic and schllarship.

I have never seen a non-Catholic scholar translate Luke 1 in that manner that you described.

To say that "This word means this because we say it does", is simply dishonest.

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Hi Steve, somehow I don't think you do....

It is indeed heartening to know that you have no interest in bashing anyone., however the manner in which you responded speaks volume. If you just want to find the truth. as you put it, then you would have also noticed that I never say my explanation is 'the' definition, you use the word [definition] I did not, I also add that is how I understand Luke 1:28. Another thing if you have borthered to read New Advent as you claimed you did, you would have also noted one of the meaning of full of grace is free from all stains, that is what I say. Now instead of coming back with your own explanation, so far all you do is rebuking what I have posted in good faith I might add.

You certainly can show as much disdain as you care to display, it is your perogative. However to accuse me of being dishonest you should perhaps do your home work at least, not just repost what I have posted specifically to answer your question, and please justify your charge with some evidence. What about answering those questions as well?

I am sure all Catholics such as myself would welcome what non Catholic scholars have to say, that is what this forum is for isn't it? Sharing our faith? Unless of course I am greatly mistaken.

[stevehut]

Another thing if you have borthered to read New Advent as you claimed you did, you would have also noted one of the meaning of full of grace is free from all stains, that is what I say.

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That was my point, exactly. I have read a couple dozen Bible reference books, dictionaries, commentaries, and Greek lexicons. None of them defines the word "grace" in that manner.

How is it that only Catholics see it that way?