BeyondET Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,868 Content Per Day: 1.22 Reputation: 816 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/1968 Share Posted February 18, 2023 4 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Yes! It's a DUAL word! That's why I said "two of them!" However, they were created that way on Day 2! See, Hebrew literature frequently begins with a summary of what is to follow, and Genesis 1:1 is the summary of what is found in the rest of the chapter! I think 1:1 is including like possibly as such, In the beginning God created the surface of the deep and the surface of the waters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 953 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,589 Content Per Day: 5.03 Reputation: 9,057 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted February 18, 2023 On 2/16/2023 at 7:14 PM, coheir said: I agree with your post. Even though it was without form, and void God imo created in that state. As the Spirit of God moved across the face of the waters He was adding all the building blocks that did not exist to sustain life. And as in Isa 45 He formed it into the Earth with gravity and everything to sustain life. I would think God created from center of earth outward to the crust. Hi, While the Holy Spirit "moved" or" Brooded", where is the adding of building blocks mentioned? It is declared within Colossians in reference to Yeshua ( Jesus) that:"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,419 Content Per Day: 8.21 Reputation: 610 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2023 13 hours ago, teddyv said: This is most likely a reference to primordial chaos. in ANE cosmology. Not an actual material state of the planet. Sounds kinda evolutional. Rather, the text says nothing about "cleaning up" any "primordial chaos". Or giving the earth a form. The earth already had form. And you missed the point about the stark contradiction between Gen 1:1,2 and Isa 45:18. If the standard translation of Gen 1:2 is correct, it contradicts Isa 45:18. The standard translation of Gen 1:1,2 says that God created the earth AND the earth was tohu (without form). But, Isa 45:18 says "God did NOT create the earth tohu". And the NASB translates "tohu" as a wasteland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,419 Content Per Day: 8.21 Reputation: 610 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2023 12 hours ago, coheir said: John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. I think that the word tohu should be translated the same everywhere. regardless whether v2 says and or now clearly there will be a continuation description. Also the author had not see what he was describing. I agree the word "tohu" should be translated the same everywhere. And that was my point. In the other passages, the word IS translated as an "uninhabited wasteplace", etc. Keep in mind that the LXX translates the conjunction at the beginning of v.2 as "but" because the Hebrew word is a disjunctive, which is about contrast, not continuation. And, the verb "was" is translated in about 70% of the time in all other verses as "became". So, the earth BECAME a wasteland. That is my point, from the Hebrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted February 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Neighbor said: Hi, While the Holy Spirit "moved" or" Brooded", where is the adding of building blocks mentioned? It is declared within Colossians in reference to Yeshua ( Jesus) that:"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." In v 9-10 he did not just put dirt together he had to add everything needed to sustain life of all kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted February 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Neighbor said: Hi, While the Holy Spirit "moved" or" Brooded", where is the adding of building blocks mentioned? It is declared within Colossians in reference to Yeshua ( Jesus) that:"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." I agree with that and John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddyv Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,264 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 2,302 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2023 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Sounds kinda evolutional. Rather, the text says nothing about "cleaning up" any "primordial chaos". Or giving the earth a form. The earth already had form. And you missed the point about the stark contradiction between Gen 1:1,2 and Isa 45:18. If the standard translation of Gen 1:2 is correct, it contradicts Isa 45:18. The standard translation of Gen 1:1,2 says that God created the earth AND the earth was tohu (without form). But, Isa 45:18 says "God did NOT create the earth tohu". And the NASB translates "tohu" as a wasteland. The "waters" is also a classic stand in for chaos. The opening of Genesis, unsurprisingly, shares the cosmic battle language of other contemporary stories of the day. Except that it simply starts with an unformed world (or wasteland if you prefer) rather than having gods slaying each other and forming the world from the slain God's body (i.e. Marduk and Tomato). There is nothing "evolutional" because that has nothing to do with the story and worldview building. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,419 Content Per Day: 8.21 Reputation: 610 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2023 1 hour ago, teddyv said: The "waters" is also a classic stand in for chaos. The opening of Genesis, unsurprisingly, shares the cosmic battle language of other contemporary stories of the day. Except that it simply starts with an unformed world (or wasteland if you prefer) rather than having gods slaying each other and forming the world from the slain God's body (i.e. Marduk and Tomato). There is nothing "evolutional" because that has nothing to do with the story and worldview building. I heard a pastor with 5 years of Hebrew in seminary say that the plural of "waters" indicates that when the Holy Spirit "brooded" over the waters, He was melting ice water, which explains the "darkness over the face of the deep". iow, it appears God had packed the earth in ice. Which was all melted, per v.2b. OK, you accept "tohu" meaning "wasteland". Then, you have to agree that the earth became a wasteland, per Isa 45:18, which says God didn't create the earth "tohu". Thank you. I mentioned "evolutional" because of your words, "primordial chaos". Regarding "other contemporary stories", surely you must realize that Genesis 1 is the account of God restoring the earth. There were no "contemporary stories". They ALL came about as Adam and Eve had children, who grew up and carried the information with them. An obviously made changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondET Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,868 Content Per Day: 1.22 Reputation: 816 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/1968 Share Posted February 18, 2023 1 hour ago, FreeGrace said: I heard a pastor with 5 years of Hebrew in seminary say that the plural of "waters" indicates that when the Holy Spirit "brooded" over the waters, He was melting ice water, which explains the "darkness over the face of the deep". iow, it appears God had packed the earth in ice. Which was all melted, per v.2b. OK, you accept "tohu" meaning "wasteland". Then, you have to agree that the earth became a wasteland, per Isa 45:18, which says God didn't create the earth "tohu". Thank you. I mentioned "evolutional" because of your words, "primordial chaos". Regarding "other contemporary stories", surely you must realize that Genesis 1 is the account of God restoring the earth. There were no "contemporary stories". They ALL came about as Adam and Eve had children, who grew up and carried the information with them. An obviously made changes. Earth packed in ice and that explains the darkness kind of leaves the light in the dark or did light come from ice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coheir Posted February 18, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 104 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,458 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 729 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/09/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1950 Share Posted February 18, 2023 1 hour ago, FreeGrace said: I heard a pastor with 5 years of Hebrew in seminary say that the plural of "waters" indicates that when the Holy Spirit "brooded" over the waters, He was melting ice water, which explains the "darkness over the face of the deep". iow, it appears God had packed the earth in ice. Which was all melted, per v.2b. OK, you accept "tohu" meaning "wasteland". Then, you have to agree that the earth became a wasteland, per Isa 45:18, which says God didn't create the earth "tohu". Thank you. I mentioned "evolutional" because of your words, "primordial chaos". Regarding "other contemporary stories", surely you must realize that Genesis 1 is the account of God restoring the earth. There were no "contemporary stories". They ALL came about as Adam and Eve had children, who grew up and carried the information with them. An obviously made changes. one does not need ice to keep one from seeing deep. for to any lake or ocean and you can only see fish 1 to 2 foot deep when a fish is 10 or more feet down you wont see him. Same with a whale if he is 10-20 feet under the surface you wont see him. look up sharks on Florida yo will see 8-12 feet sharks swimming next to people wading the people dont him even in that shallow water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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