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JoeChan82

When did the Church begin

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On 5/31/2018 at 10:42 PM, JoeChan82 said:

I think that the church began with Jesus and His disciples.  That seems to fit the definition of a called out assembly with Jesus Christ as the head.  I have seen posts in other threads where it is stated that the church began on the day of Pentecost.  I think that the church existed before Pentecost and was empowered by the Holy Spirit and members added.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I am not dogmatic about my position on this and really want to hear from others.  There must be some ramifications to which position one holds, but I don't know what they are. I wrote a Statement of Faith once in view of a call and was corrected on this and the man correcting me was very insistent. I don't understand why this is so important, but I want to know. 

The consensus is it began with Pentecost as already noted above, but you might find this explanation a little more revealing as to the real significance of why it was at Pentecost.

http://considerthegospel.org/2012/05/27/the-feast-of-pentecost-another-allusion-in-the-divine-plan/

Also, this may be of interest as well as to when the New Testament actually begins.

http://dowlenroad.com/?p=4027

Keep in mind as well, that Christ came on a mission to save the Jews, not the gentiles while he was alive. Matthew 15:22-24. That came after. Matthew 28:18-20. 

Cheers JoeChan82!

Edited by RockyMidnight

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On 6/1/2018 at 3:42 AM, JoeChan82 said:

I think that the church began with Jesus and His disciples.  That seems to fit the definition of a called out assembly with Jesus Christ as the head.  I have seen posts in other threads where it is stated that the church began on the day of Pentecost.  I think that the church existed before Pentecost and was empowered by the Holy Spirit and members added.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I am not dogmatic about my position on this and really want to hear from others.  There must be some ramifications to which position one holds, but I don't know what they are. I wrote a Statement of Faith once in view of a call and was corrected on this and the man correcting me was very insistent. I don't understand why this is so important, but I want to know. 

'And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, 
after that Paul had spoken one word, 
Well spake the Holy Ghost 
.. by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
.... Saying, “Go unto this people, and say, 
...... Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; 
........ and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, 
.. and their ears are dull of hearing, 
.... and their eyes have they closed; 
...... lest they should see with their eyes, 
........ and hear with their ears, 
.......... and understand with their heart, 
............ and should be converted, 
.............. and I should heal them.
Be it known therefore unto you, 
that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, 
and that they will hear it.'

(Act 28:25-28)  

Hello @JoeChan82,

I believe that the Church which is the Body of Christ of which He, Himself, is the Head, began with the laying aside of Israel in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period: prior to the scattering of Israel in AD70, possibly in AD67.  It is marked by the quotation from Isaiah 6:9,10, in Acts 28:26-27, which, when quoted previously by the Lord Jesus Christ, always marked a point of crisis and rejection (Matt.13:14,15; John 12:40).  For Israel the final point of crisis came with their continued rejection of the Truth as ministered to them by Paul (Acts 28:22-31), following approx. 40 years of opportunity to repent. Salvation was then sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28)

* This rejection by Israel was provisioned for by God, in Christ, by His foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world, and the truth of the Mystery, previously hidden in God (Eph. 3:9), was made known to Paul to administer, as God's Steward, to repair the breach.  This truth is written for our learning in the epistles written by Paul subsequently, from prison, in, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Timothy and Titus).

* Pentecost was not the beginning of the Church which is being called out today.  There would not have been a gentile among them on that occasion, except for proselytes, for it was a Feast of the Jews.  Gentiles were also grafted into the Olive tree of Israel in Acts 10 for one purpose only, and that was to inject life into a failing tree, by making Israel jealous (Romans 11:11).

* The Gospels are an extension of the Old Testament, and the ministry of our Lord during His first advent was to 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel' (Matt. 15:24).  The ministry of the twelve was also to that same company (Matt.10:6; Gal.2:9).  Only Paul was specifically an Apostle to the Gentiles, and to him only the stewardship of the dispensation of the Mystery was given. (Ephesians 3:2, 6-9)

Praise God!

There is much that could be said here, Joe, but I hope this will give you food for thought.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Edited by Christine
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Thank you Christine. No doubt that Acts is a transitional book. You are, however, the first person that I have ever heard say that the church began at the end of Acts. I have heard that the church began at Pentecost and I have heard that it started with the disciples as recorded in the gospels. I like some of the points you made in your post. Now I have a third option to look at. 😁 There is a consistency in your arguments that I appreciate.

Edited by JoeChan82
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48 minutes ago, RockyMidnight said:

The consensus is it began with Pentecost as already noted above, but you might find this explanation a little more revealing as to the real significance of why it was at Pentecost.

Hello Rocky. There is an obvious connection of the Old Testament convocations and their associated feasts to the gospels as well as the rest of the New Testament. In fact, until I understood that the last supper was indeed the Passover, this passage confused me.  Once I realized that Jesus was eating the Passover with His disciples, I understood that when Christ said, "Take, eat; this is my body." he was revealing Himself as the Passover.

1 Corinthians 5:7 …  For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Matthew 26:26-28 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

So I understand the importance of Pentecost as well. I followed the links you posted and read all of it. Good stuff.

Edited by JoeChan82
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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 12:42 PM, JoeChan82 said:

I think that the church began with Jesus and His disciples.  That seems to fit the definition of a called out assembly with Jesus Christ as the head.  I have seen posts in other threads where it is stated that the church began on the day of Pentecost.  I think that the church existed before Pentecost and was empowered by the Holy Spirit and members added.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I am not dogmatic about my position on this and really want to hear from others.  There must be some ramifications to which position one holds, but I don't know what they are. I wrote a Statement of Faith once in view of a call and was corrected on this and the man correcting me was very insistent. I don't understand why this is so important, but I want to know. 

Hi JoeChan,

Interesting question. Now the `Church` the Body of Christ, are the called out ones from Israel and the Gentiles. They (we) are blessed to be `in Christ,` by His Holy Spirit. When Christ ascended to the Father He sent His Holy Spirit to make the believers like unto Himself. We have the divine nature within us by His Spirit. This was not possible prior to Christ ascending and giving His Holy Spirit with His nature for us.

Thus on the day of Pentecost the message was to the house of Israel. Many repented and received of the Holy Spirit. Later we see that the Apostle Peter was told to go to the house of Cornelius, a Gentile and pass the blessing on to them. Thus we then see Jews and Gentiles coming into the Body of Christ.

As we read in God`s word, it was at the end of Acts that the leaders of Israel turned from the Holy Spirit, and thus the nation went into partial blindness. Thus, I believe there was a transition period, an overlap of the purpose of God for Israel and the beginnings of the Body of Christ, (from Pentecost to the end of Acts).

Note: Today we see the two purposes overlapping. Israel, as a nation has returned to their land and the countdown is on to them being delivered from their enemies. We, however as the Body of Christ, purpose, are being brought to maturity by the Holy Spirit, and when we are taken to our eternal setting, then the time clock for Israel, the last 7 years of chastisement, will start.

regards, Marilyn. 

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