The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[n2thelight]

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In the above verse Christ just warned us to not believe anyone who says He is somewhere.Questions is this,what will these so called tribulation saints say that Christ is?

 

To me the verse speaks for itself,meaning if anyone has to tell you Christ has came,He hasn't!!!!!!

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

This concept is unworkable for pretrib doctrine. According to Pretrib GT is the wrath of God. No believer will see the wrath of God. Ergo, no believers can be in the GT. Yet there are. This means the pretrib arguments are based on a false premise. The arguments for Pretrib are consistent but the conclusion is false based on the evidence that believers came from out of GT.

So the false evidence for pretrib begins with the assumption that the 70th week is all God's wrath.  

False, because we all know wrath does not begin until the 6th seal, deep into the last week. 

And the doctrine crumbles, and great was the fall.

"This concept" may not fit someone's doctrine, but God does not even try to fit someone's doctrine. It is the truth of scripture. I hope that is what we are all going for. It is not God's desire that anyone get "left behind," but the truth is, millions will be - millions that even call themselves "Christian."  Why? Because they are not born again. Their churches never taught them to read the bible for themselves and never taught them that they MUST be born again.  Remember, it is not His will, but it will happen. His will is that all are born again and all are watching for His coming. 

On the other hand, His bride will be ready and expecting His coming, and will fly away, a moment before the 6th seal. They will miss His wrath for God will not set any appointments for them. 

Next, it is no assumption that the 70th week is all wrath; that too is scripture. However, to know this, one must delineate WHERE the 70th week is found in Revelation.  Millions mistakenly believe the 70th week begins with the first seal, when in truth it will begin with the 7th seal. And we find God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal.  So you are mistaken yet again, imagining that the 70th week begins with the first seal.  You took the first seal out of its 32 AD context. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5.  Notice in chapter 5 that John shows us the TIMING is when Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down. In other words, infant church timing. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. 

It is your doctrine then that is faulty, not God's doctrine.  It is very difficult to have true doctrine when verses are pulled out of context.

Edited July 24, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

God is allowed to do anything. Your question is invalid in this case as it's not proof of anything. Cite scriptures that show a gathering before the 70th week begins that is not associated with the coming of the Lord and the attendant events. Why don't you see that imminence is refuted by the verses you cite in attempts to prove the pretrib 'rapture'?

There is no such thing as 'rapture' in scripture. It's made up. The gathering Paul spoke of is associated with the coming of the Lord, only after the revealing of the beast. The large righteous group from Rev 7 you mentioned? They came out of GT. They are not gathered before the 70th week begins, they are gathered and saved from out of GT.

Aren't you going to feel betrayed when you find the doctrine you have learned is false and there is no pretrib 'rapture'?

What? Did you fail to read "coming" in 1 Thes. 4? OF COURSE the rapture is tied to His coming - but only to the air above the earth. Why do you find this so difficult to believe? It is written in black and white. HE COMES, the trumpet sounds, An angel shouts, and the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves. Then sudden destruction hits - HARD! It will be a world wide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. At that instant in time, two groups of people get two separate and very different results:

1. Those who are in Christ are instantly changed and they too fly up into the air - and TOGETHER (Paul's "gathering") they fly up to meet the Lord in the air. Paul writes that they get "salvation" by way of rapture and get to "live together with Him" (So shall we ever be with the Lord).

2. Those that are living in darkness get left behind. They cannot escape Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake, for it will be world wide. 

Paul then tells us, this sudden destruction will be the start of God's wrath, and so the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  He further tells us that God will set no appointment with His wrath for those who are in the rapture event and get caught up. He makes no such statement for those who are left behind. His statement for those left behind is "sudden destruction." This world wide earthquake will certain kill many people, but not everyone. 

Many of those left behind will KNOW they are left behind, and know WHY they were left behind. They will immediately repent and turn to God wholeheartedly - so NEW believers will come to God immediately after the rapture. However, there will be no second rapture, so these must live through His wrath and through the 70th week. But since we know the Antichrist will have power over them, most must choose to lose their head and make it to heaven, or keep their head and take the mark. It will be VERY HARD.  How much better if they had been ready for His coming. 

How then can you say "there is no such thing as 'rapture' in scripture? You are very much in error, not believing what Paul has written. 

Again you are in error in 2 Thes. 2. The "apostasia" is the departing of the church (rapture) that must come first, before the man of sin can be revealed as the Beast. 

You are in error yet again, not understand John's meaning about the great crowd too large to number. Did you not know or understand, John used that term before in his letter to the churches, and was certain not meaning the last half of the 70th week. Did you not understand that just those two words, "great tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe what is coming; He had to add more words, telling us there will never again be such a time and never has been.  So when John mentions GT with the great crowd too large to number, he is only telling us people are being put to death because they believe in Jesus Christ. In other words, a time just like TODAY.  The truth is, God can create "great tribulation" any time He desires.  But the days of GT that He spoke of, that will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet - those days will never be repeated and will be worse than anything past or future.

Because you don't understand John's chronology, then you miss the fact that in chapter 7, John has not yet even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the midpoint and the days of GT that will follow, when they get the image set up and the mark created and enforced. 

The truth is, unless you get ready quickly and understand His coming is imminent, you too will be left behind. He is coming for those who are EXPECTING His coming and will have faith for it. It will be those left behind who will fell betrayed.  Those who are ready and watching  - EXPECTING His coming - they will be full of joy!  

May I suggest you chuck your theories of Revelation into file 13 and start over? Learn that God MARKED the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.  Then understand the context of the first seal: chapters 4 & 5 - that show us the correct timing of the first 5 seals.  Please don't attempt to teach until you can teach truth.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Oh ok, so Herod had seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns? Or is this referring to nations and kings in the beast system. Really?? ?

Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.

How do you explain the crowns in Rev 4?? There are five crowns we are able to receive at the Bema Seat. It seems like the praising and worshiping are synonymous in words, via pre-trib rapture and angels standing around the throne........

GLORY
HONOR
POWER

Rev 4:10-11 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 11"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Rev 5:11-14 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Rev 7:10-12 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"

Wow! No, iam. John had a vision of the rapture and the 70th week of Daniel, via seals trumpets and bowls and 1260 days. Rev 4-19.

Sorry, I should have written Rev. 12:1-5.  Why is this so difficult to understand? The dragon is SATAN. Can you not understand that Satan influences those who are his and causes them to do his will? He was using King Herod to kill Jesus as a child. However, God was always ahead, and his plan failed.  It is Satan that was seen with the seven heads and seven horns. 

Satan is currently the god of this world - the position God gave to Adam. But Satan usurped Adam's authority, dominion and position.  That is why there were heads, horns and crowns. Did you just not understand it was Satan working through Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece trying to wipe Israel off the map before God's words could come to pass? Don't you understand, that has been Satan's plan all along - to prove God to be a liar.  If there is no more Israel - then God would end up being a liar. 

I do hope one day you understand John's chronology.  In chapter 4, the worship and praise is just for WHO GOD IS. In chapter 5, they are worshiping because Jesus had just conquered death, ascended back into heaven, was found worthy to take the book and open the seals, and to receive power and wealth and wisdom etc.  In chapter 7 they are worshipping Him who just raptured them to heaven!  They are around the throne in heaven.

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In the above verse Christ just warned us to not believe anyone who says He is somewhere.Questions is this,what will these so called tribulation saints say that Christ is?

 

To me the verse speaks for itself,meaning if anyone has to tell you Christ has came,He hasn't!!!!!!

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

When Christ descends from the 3rd Heaven into the atmospheric heaven, into the clouds, it will be up against the backdrop of total darkness. His radiant glory shall so shine forth and that of the heavenly host of mighty angels, that it will be unmistakable. His appearing and revelation will be a spectacle like no other.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
...
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When He arrives at His coming (parousia), He and the mighty angels will be revealed for all to see; the unbelieving will begin to hide; the dead in Christ are resurrected; the saints which remain alive, who were looking to the skies knowing that their redemption was nigh, are changed; both the resurrected and the survivors who have been changed are caught up (raptured) to be with Jesus in the clouds by the angels; Christ then escorts us to the Father's house to stand before the throne; He seals the 144,000 for protection from the plagues which will begin to fall upon the earth-dwellers the very same day; He opens the seventh seal; there is 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven; and the first trumpet is blown initiating the plagues of God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Since all of this happens on the very first day of His coming, His parousia will be unmistakable.

Hallelujah

[Heb 13:8]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is Satan that was seen with the seven heads and seven horns. 

iam, the seven heads and seven horns represent empires and kings in a future 70th week, Dan 7:17, Rev 17:9-10.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space

Quote

I do hope one day you understand John's chronology.  In chapter 4, the worship and praise is just for WHO GOD IS. In chapter 5, they are worshiping because Jesus had just conquered death, ascended back into heaven, was found worthy to take the book and open the seals, and to receive power and wealth and wisdom etc.  In chapter 7 they are worshipping Him who just raptured them to heaven!  They are around the throne in heaven.

Iam, these are simply layers upon layers of the same storyline. He's telling the same story in different chapters.....

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

[n2thelight]

 

Quote

 

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is Satan that was seen with the seven heads and seven horns. 

 

Now you need to understand that 7 and 10

 

 

[Heb 13:8]

20 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

 

Now you need to understand that 7 and 10

 

 

Dan 7:24

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"This concept" may not fit someone's doctrine, but God does not even try to fit someone's doctrine. It is the truth of scripture. I hope that is what we are all going for. It is not God's desire that anyone get "left behind," but the truth is, millions will be - millions that even call themselves "Christian."  Why? Because they are not born again. Their churches never taught them to read the bible for themselves and never taught them that they MUST be born again.  Remember, it is not His will, but it will happen. His will is that all are born again and all are watching for His coming. 

On the other hand, His bride will be ready and expecting His coming, and will fly away, a moment before the 6th seal. They will miss His wrath for God will not set any appointments for them. 

Next, it is no assumption that the 70th week is all wrath; that too is scripture. However, to know this, one must delineate WHERE the 70th week is found in Revelation.  Millions mistakenly believe the 70th week begins with the first seal, when in truth it will begin with the 7th seal. And we find God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal.  So you are mistaken yet again, imagining that the 70th week begins with the first seal.  You took the first seal out of its 32 AD context. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5.  Notice in chapter 5 that John shows us the TIMING is when Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down. In other words, infant church timing. The first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. 

It is your doctrine then that is faulty, not God's doctrine.  It is very difficult to have true doctrine when verses are pulled out of context.

Yes, I remember you think the rider on the white horse is the Gospel. Maybe that's true, maybe not, but it still does not deal with the issue.

If the 70th week is all wrath, there should be no believer in Jesus in the 70th week, at any point. If during the last week a person receives the revealed truth of Jesus and salvation and becomes born again of the Spirit, they would be doomed to immediately suffer the wrath of God; something to which Paul has told us we are not appointed.

"We are not appointed to wrath" is a bedrock tenet of Pretrib. If the 70th week is all God's wrath (another foundational concept of Pretrib), which would mean GT is also God's wrath, then how is this, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;-Rev 7" possible? 

It's not possible if Paul told the truth when he said,  "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thessalonians 5:9

This can only mean that GT is not the wrath of God because Paul did speak the truth, we are not appointed to wrath.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What? Did you fail to read "coming" in 1 Thes. 4? OF COURSE the rapture is tied to His coming - but only to the air above the earth. Why do you find this so difficult to believe? It is written in black and white. HE COMES, the trumpet sounds, An angel shouts, and the dead in Christ fly up out of their graves. Then sudden destruction hits - HARD! It will be a world wide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. At that instant in time, two groups of people get two separate and very different results:

I believe. Just not the timing for pretrib. The Coming of the Lord and the Gathering of the Elect only occur after the revealing of the man of sin and the rebellion of God's people, a rebellion against the truth of the Lord's word. We see that today and it's going to get worse.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul then tells us, this sudden destruction will be the start of God's wrath, and so the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  He further tells us that God will set no appointment with His wrath for those who are in the rapture event and get caught up. He makes no such statement for those who are left behind. His statement for those left behind is "sudden destruction." 

You're going to contradict this statement with your next because you are about to say some believers do suffer wrath consisting of sudden destruction.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 They will immediately repent and turn to God wholeheartedly - so NEW believers will come to God immediately after the rapture. 

These kind of contradictions are rife in pretrib doctrine. You just said 'sudden destruction' then you say there will be 'new believers' right after the 'rapture'. How is that possible when they are suddenly destroyed? 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How then can you say "there is no such thing as 'rapture' in scripture? You are very much in error, not believing what Paul has written. 

There is a gathering of the elect. 'Rapture' appears no where in scripture. A gathering is seen, 'rapture' is a made up term that does not appear.

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again you are in error in 2 Thes. 2. The "apostasia" is the departing of the church (rapture) that must come first, before the man of sin can be revealed as the Beast. 

I know that you like this definition of apostasia. Do the leg work on this. Apostasia has never been defined as departure since it was written in the Koine Greek by Paul in the 1st century. Apostasia has always been defined as, 'revolt', 'rebellion', or 'defection'. 

The coming of the Lord will be after the rebellion of the people of God and the revealing of the beast. These are the two events holding back the return of Jesus Christ and the gathering the elect. I'd get ready for battle if I were you. Our fight is coming.

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

May I suggest you chuck your theories of Revelation into file 13 and start over? Learn that God MARKED the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.  Then understand the context of the first seal: chapters 4 & 5 - that show us the correct timing of the first 5 seals.  Please don't attempt to teach until you can teach truth.

Not a teacher and don't claim to be. Teachers fashion young minds through doctrine and agenda and have been subverting truth for millennia. I listen to The Truth. I repeat.