The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

As John was in his out-of-body experience, and was in heaven, he was shown many things when he was in heaven, which he "viewed".    He was also told many things which he did not view directly.       There is only one place in Revelation the word vision is used... and it was pertaining to what he "viewed" - while he was out-of-body.    

Yet, when we know that events seen have not yet come to pass, is not that proof positive that it was in vision form that he saw it?

Edited August 21, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Sorry, duplicate

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, Last Daze said:

Sorry, but it won't happen according to the will of man.  God has set the standard.  Not all of the tap-dancing and word games and posturing and wishful thinking will change what He has declared.

• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13
• You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Mark 13:13

He has told us ahead of time what to expect, so be vigilant and watch and remain faithful to the end.

Are you going to wait until you get to heaven to learn that some scriptures are pointed to the Hebrews, and others to the Gentile church of today? OF COURSE those that are left behind will have to endure to the end, or take the mark and be doomed.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

That's irrational, to use that system to say that the 70th week starts with the seventh seal.    To show the flaws in the system, there are 7 kings in Revelation 17, five have fallen, one is -- at the time of John, 1st century.    And the 70th week certainly did not start back then.

The seventieh week begins in Daniel 9 when the prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for one week.

In Revelation, the seventieth week start with the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, given a crown, anointed the King of Israel, illegitimate.

 

I don't understand what you are trying to say "confirmed" as their king?     That's not the prophecy.   It is the covenant that is to be confirmed for 7 years.

 

You are the one that used the word, "confirmed." I copied the word you used.

And you are so far off with the white horse and rider that you have left the ball field and left the city the ball field was in. Have  you not studied and understood God's message to us in chapters 4 & 5?  The very first words God spoke to me concerning these two chapters are "It shows TIMING." And indeed it does.

Please tell us, approximately what year was it when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down?

It is very logical and just plain common sense: in chapter 1, John was alive. He wrote: "I John, in the tribulation..." In chapter 21 the timing is after the 1000 years still in our future. It makes sense that somewhere in between is where we are NOW. How would we find that? We figure out the first event mentioned that is in our future. It is absolute that the 6th seal is future. However, the 5th seal was opened and those martyrs are in holding, waiting for their final number. Therefore the church has been waiting on the 6th seal now for almost 2000 years. 

You also far off imagining that the first seal is the Antichrist. There is NOT ONE WORD in his description to even hint of something evil. And this horse and rider began riding (figuratively) around 32 AD.  God had John use the color white 17 times in Revelation, and every other time, to represent righteousness. How silly to think in this one case, God would use white for evil. That makes NO sense!  The truth is, the first seal is to represent the CHURCH - the only righteous entity on earth in 32 AD - to begin taking the GOSPEL to the world. 

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.  When John mentioned that five of the seven had already fallen, that was HISTORY. I have already said that some of Revelation is HISTORY today and was even history to John.  These kings have nothing to do with the start of the 70th week.  It's OK if you don't believe the Week begins with the 7th seal. Most of the church has not found this out yet. In the end, all will know it is truth.  John shows us that THE DAY starts first at the 6th seal, then perhaps 10 days later (the ten days of AWE?) the WEEK will begin at the 7th seal. 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yet, when we know that events seen have not yet come to pass, is not that proof positive that it was in vision form that he saw it?

No, John was literally in heaven.   By contrast, Daniel, in Daniel 7 has a dream.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

4 hours ago, douggg said:

 

You are the one that used the word, "confirmed." I copied the word you used.

Please copy and paste where I wrote the King is "confirmed".      The King is "anointed".    It is the covenant that is confirmed for 7 years.

Quote

You also far off imagining that the first seal is the Antichrist. There is NOT ONE WORD in his description to even hint of something evil.

He, the Antichrist, is riding the white horse because he is "instead of", i.e. perceived to be the messiah instead of Jesus.

Quote

It is very logical and just plain common sense: in chapter 1, John was alive. He wrote: "I John, in the tribulation..." In chapter 21 the timing is after the 1000 years still in our future. It makes sense that somewhere in between is where we are NOW

We go to other text in the bible to figure that out.   Namely the parable of the fig tree.     And the other trees.      The other trees are the fourth empire of the end times, the EU.     And the Gog/Magog nations - Iran, Turkey, Russia.     

The fig tree is Jerusalem.   1067+70 years=2037.    Minus 7 years for the start of the 70th week - is by the end of 2030.     Which is immediately preceded by Gog/Magog.     From that, we are living on the verge.

You are not going to get anything from the sixth seal as to where we are now.       The next event - not counting the Rapture as no-one knows when that takes place - is the formation the 10 leader form of EU government with one leader over them - the liitle horn.       Who eventually becomes the Antichrist, the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by douggg

[Salty]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

You are making a mistake in thinking the day of Christ's coming for the resurrection/rapture is the Day of the Lord.      

Look at what Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36, to escape that day.     It is not to escape His coming for the resurrection/rapture, but to escape the Day of the Lord beginning years.

 

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

The confusion is over what exactly is the Day of the Lord.    It includes the beginning years -- basically ~ the second half of the 70th week of Daniel 9.   

Then the millennium reign of Christ.  Then the concluding years of this present earth, with Satan's final rebellion.    Then the destruction of this present earth -- at which time the resurrection of all the dead, not previously resurrected, the last trump, for the Great White Throne judgment.    Then the new heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem for eternity.     The Day of the Lord encompasses all those things.

It is the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, which 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thessalonians2 are referring.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"like a thief in the night" is a saying used in the bible by Jessus - to indicate something happening totally unexpected by most people.   It is used for different events, and just because it is used in one place, it should not be equated that event be timed with another event which the saying is also used.

Every man under his own fig tree - is a similar saying, used to describe a state of contentment.    It was used for Solomon's reign.   But also to describe the millennium period.

Similarly, some people make the mistake of equating the "last" trumpet, with the 7th trumpet because the 7th trumpet is the last of the 7 trumpets.

 

Our Lord Jesus' idea of our escaping is about escaping the 'temptation' by the coming pseudo-Christ, and thus we who remain faithful to Jesus standing in Him do not suffer the "sudden destruction" that will be upon those who do fall to that Antichrist. Proof?

In Matthew 24, especially in the 23-26 verses, our Lord Jesus showed the 'vile person' (of Dan.11) will have the "abomination of desolation" placed in Jerusalem to begin the time of "great tribulation." He then told His servants that if someone comes up to you and says, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", to not believe it, because a pseudo-Christ (mistranslated as "false Christs" in the KJV) is to come working great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even His very elect. That warning aligns with what Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about the "man of sin" coming to sit in the temple in Jerusalem working lying wonders to deceive prior to Christ's coming and our gathering.

The "day of the Lord" timing is the very last day of this present world. It will come suddenly, like Apostle Paul showed, and as Peter also showed in 2 Peter 3:10. That is what the "as a thief in the night" phrase is about. Our Lord Jesus used that phrase too when He said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15. He gave the warning there on 6th vial, and then for the 7th vial He gathers the nations to battle for the "day of the Lord" on the day of His coming, which is shown in Zechariah 14, His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives. On that same day He gathers His Church and brings them with Him to Jerusalem at that site.

 

[Salty]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Shame has nothing to do with it. Paul used Day of the Lord in His first letter. And other Greek texts use Day of the Lord. Were you there when it was written? I doubt it - so you really don't know what Paul wrote.  Only God really knows.  We both know that Christ is Lord anyway, so it is not a big deal. Why then are you trying to make it a big deal?

The phrase is actually "day of the Lord"  ha ha! Now you are on my side of this argument! You just tried to prove it was the Greek Christos! You are too funny!

Since you have totally flip-flopped in one post, why continue? 

"the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men you hold to wrongly teaches that the "day of the Lord" happens PRIOR to the appearing of the "man of sin""

Look, Salty, I am supposing you can read: so you read and answer: what did Paul write that comes FIRST?

Geneva Bible 1560

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

 

Now, Salty, please show the readers what it is that Paul says comes FIRST...

We will be waiting....

Now you are just adding more falsehoods to what you've said before.

As I said before, in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, the Greek word for Christ is NOT... in the NT Textus Receptus which was used for the KJV Bible.

2 Thess 2:2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (actually Greek kurios = Lord) is at hand.
KJV

The proper translation there is not "day of Christ". It should have been "day of the Lord".

 

Furthermore, Apostle Paul declared in those 2 Thess.2:1-4 verses that the falling away and man of sin being revealed MUST occur first, PRIOR to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. And that 'day' of His coming Paul referred to there as the "day of the Lord" in verse 2.

That makes Pre-trib's teaching that the "day of the Lord" begins at the start of the tribulation as a FALSEHOOD, and against God's Word.

 

Further -

2 Thess 2:2
Day of Christ. 'Aleph (') A B Delta G f g, Vulgate, read 'of the Lord.'
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database.  Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

2 Thess 2:1-2
The gist of these false reports was that the day of the Lord (Christ does not have good manuscript support) had arrived. The verb (enesteken) means "is present" (cf. Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 3:22; Heb 9:9), not is at hand. Day of the Lord. See note on 1 Thess 5:2.
(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)

I agree.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Salty

[Salty]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have been thinking about this of late. I mean, the falling away cannot be unnoticed as Paul says it's one of the conditions. So it must clearly be something we can witness. Speculation on my part results in a scenario wherein there is an opposing force, enticing specifically the people of God to change parties, so to speak. A platform leveled at the wants and desires of the target group and supported by prior results and lofty promises. Sort of like Donald Trump spoke to the needs of the people. Prior results, lofty promises. I'm not saying the President is the beast, I don't think Christians will abdicate in favor Trumpinaity,  not that there is such a thing.

Again, speculation leads me to think it will be a rhetorical religious message aimed at the heart and mind of believers. With perhaps a great many leaders of the mega churches changing allegiances, and taking the flock with them. That would be something we would notice. IMO.

I admonish you to look deeper. Our Lord Jesus linked the idea of a false coming to work great signs and wonders to deceive, even revealing that the whole world will be deceived, except for Christ's elect. So that's not going to be a working comparable to anything man has done up to that time. The Rev.13:11 forward examples mentions the coming Antichrist raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men, working miracles. And Apostle Paul revealed that coming false one will sit in the temple in Jerusalem exalting himself above all that is worshiped, or that is even called God.

Imagine that, a false one coming that will have powers of deception that will deceive ALL... the world's religions, and peoples, and even anything that is worshiped! That's not talking about any flesh man born to this day. Even our Lord Jesus Who has ultimate power to work miracles on earth was not exalted above all nations and peoples like that (but He will be when He returns).

In short, the coming Antichrist is coming to play Christ, and he is given the power of miracles, wonders, and great signs in order to pull it off. Yet our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us, that is, those who listen to Him in His Word and not to men's doctrines instead.

[Salty]

14 hours ago, douggg said:

The Day of the Lord lasts over a thousand years, and all the way into eternity.      It is the beginning years (the time of great tribulation) - which the verses are focused.

In the old testament, those referrals to the Day of the Lord beginning that way, when zoomed in - to the great tribulation timeframe, the signs of distress in the sun and moon are at the end of the great tribulation, and Jesus is about to descend down to earth.      

In terms of the 7 years, the Day of the Lord will begin sometime in the early middle part of the seven years.     Right before the Abomination of Desolation is placed in the temple a short time after the person reveals himself as the man of sin.

 

I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that the "day of the Lord" begins with the time of "great tribulation", but that idea is not from God's Word.

The "day of the Lord" is the day of destruction of this present world. The time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned us about is part of this present world time. The "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" is what ENDS... the time of "great tribulation".

Isa 13:6
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
KJV

Isa 13:9
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV