Is deception talked about in the Bible?

[Guest wilburnh]

Exodus 1:15-21

  15And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:

  16And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

  17But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

  18And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

  19And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

  20Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

  21And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

Ok so here we can see that the midwives new that killing the children would have been a sin against God. They decided amongst themselves to not do what the king asked. When they were asked why they didn't follow is orders they gave another reason for disobeying. Now if what they said were true then it could be argued that they didn't lie (I don't know if I would be on this boat) but it would still hold that they were deceiving the king which I believe is a form of a lie.

So my thoughts on this passage are concerning posts that ask, "would you lie to save the life of one?" I think that according to this passage, God will bless those who stand up for good against a stronger evil. These women had no defense against the egyptians. I believe that the situation changes and deceit/lies become wrong when they are not necessary to save a life.

God bless

[EricH]

This is a very interesting question as there are several places in the OT where people deceive and are seemingly rewarded"

1. Tamar and Judah

2. The harlot and the Hebrew spies

3. Abraham and Pharaoh

My initial thought is that God is not rewarding the act of deception, but rather the person's commitment to His kingdom.

For instance with Tamar and Judah, Judah was resisting his kingdom obligation to provide a son to Tamar to continue the family name. Tamar was willing to debase herself by posing as a prostitute to conceive a son with Judah. Judah's conclusion was that she was more righteous than he, because she was willing to do anything to ensure that the Godly line was continued

When Abraham lied to Pharaoh regarding Sarah, Abraham received blessing not because of the lie, but because of Sarah (through whom the Godly line would come)

When the midwives lied they were prasied not for the lie, but for protecting the Godly line

My initial thoughts anyway

Edited May 3, 2005 by pastoreric

[amazingrace]

Its always better to tell the truth than to lie. This passage might be used to support ''situational ethics'', which worldly humanistic wisdom seems to be approving more and more. But we see in verse 21 what was really happening here : "and it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he built them houses'' Their action was not spurred by personal motive, indeed, they could have been put to death if their deceipt had been discovered (the houses came after God saw that they disobeyed Pharoah) The midwives feared God more than they feared Pharoah.

[Guest Bro David™]

Greetings.

Puah and Shiphrah are the Midwives you are delivering the question on.

Now in those days a dis-obedience to a direct order from the King of Egypt would result in Death by execution.

And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

This was the order that was given to the two ladies.

Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

The answer they gave was that because the Hebrew women work and toil that they gave birth without the them needing any attention from the midwifes.

They did indeed give a distorted account to the King.

But it was not because lying was okay to save a life or that we can account our lying with certain good deeds.

In going so far has this account in Exodus goes.

But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?

And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.

And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

It is the fact that the two ladies choose the fear of God above the orders of a mere man.

Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

God did not step before the two women and threaten them into not killing the children.

They themselves knew that it was against God to kill the Hebrew Children fresh out of their mothers womb.

They choose the truth.

They choose the fear of the Lord.

Thus in the context of this verse it was not so much so that the women wanted to do the right thing.

It was that they choose the fear of God above all else.

YBIC

[Annette443pink]

Jacob deceived Isaac. Rebekah (his mother) helped him. (Read Genesis 27)

Rachel & Leah's dad (Laban) deceived Jacob. (Read Genesis 29)

Edited May 3, 2005 by Annette443pink

[Guest wilburnh]

Bro David, you don't believe that this can be linked to lying to save life but rather:

It is the fact that the two ladies choose the fear of God above the orders of a mere man.

I'm not quite following your reason here. From my understanding of the passage, these women were not lying to save the boys but rather to save their own lives. Now while the motivation to not kill the children was directed by the Fear of God, it seems to me that they still lied to save their lives from an evil king.

While there are many passages of people telling lies, I don't think that many of them seem to show that the individuals doing the lying were ever blessed.

Maybe by the end of this discussion I'll know exactly what I think about this passage and be better able to put down my thoughts in word.

God bless

[other one]

To answer your question of "Is deception talked about in the Bible?, and is it condoned or looked down on?"

Yes it is talked about in the bible and it is not always looked down upon. The first example you mention, here is another that the Lord Himself was part of.

2 Chron 18:17-22

17 Then the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?" 18 And Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right and on His left. 19 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'How?' 21 "And he said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.' 22 "Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; for the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."

NASB

The Lord approved it and caused Ahab to go to his death.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying it is ok to lie, but there seem to be places and times that call for it.

It also says that He will give a lot of people over to a great deception during the end times.

As for me, I am still contemplating all this and am not sure just what I think about it all. The verse I quoted above has always been a problem for me for a lot of other reasons.

Thanks for bringing up the subject.....

[Guest Bro David™]

Hey there !.

Yes theY told the lie to save their own behinds. LOL

Yes lying is a sin.

Okay let me firstly try to expound on the part of the Blessing of the two women.

They were well blessed by God.

Many Theologians claim that they were blessed even after telling a lie.

Now the Bible never contradicts itself at any point at all.

They were blessed for choosing the fear of the Lord.

They were blessed because they played a part in His will.

Not in anyway pertaining to the lying or in-spite of the lying.

Now to the other part why did they not get punished for lying ?

Well firstly lying has we all know was a sin and is still one.

But they ladies did not stay in the sin.

It was one moment in which they decided of their own will to lie.

Does God somehow condone lying at all ?

No.

He clearly stated it in the Commandments that he disliked it enough to ban us from doing it.

Walter Kaiser correctly observed:

[Guest Bro David™]

Simply because something works out in the end does not imply that the means are justifiable before God.

The path that Moses was lead by God was Victories in the end.

But because HE went against the command of God he was still punished.

He led them thru to the Land of Milk and Honey but was still barred from entering it.

The end does not justify the means.

I hope I am helping rather then debating or anything.

GBU

YBIC

[amazingrace]

The Bible reports numerous instances of deception. God has withheld little from us, even the heroes of the faith are presented with all the warts and wrinkles of their humanity. What is reported, and what God actually approves are two distinctly different things. In the instance of the midwives, the Bible tells us why they disobeyed Pharoah and deceived his agents... it was because they feared the Lord. Add to their fear of the Lord, the fact that they were midwives. Their work was to deliver babies... live babies...and not be instrumental in their deaths. I dont think its a stretch at all to say that in addition to their fear of the Lord, they had a genuine love for the babies they helped usher into the world.