The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

54 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

1 Cor 9:25b - but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.  Phil 4:1 - Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends.  1 Thes 2:19 - For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes.  2 Tim 4:8 - Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day... and to all who have longed for his appearing.

And all this is promised to Believers in Christ Jesus.  For this is reality.  It is what has been promised to us.  And we see 24 elders in heaven who are wearing crowns.  The Bema Seat of Christ is where  N. T. Believers in Christ receive their rewards (crowns).  So in Rev chapter 4 and 5, the rewards (crowns) have already been given out, and all this before the 1st Seal is even opened.

Believe what you must believe.  You have no evidence of crowns (rewards) being given out to any other individuals, except those of the Church.

In Christ

Montana Marv

So how did the 24 elders get their crowns before the Lamb conquered sin and death?  Notice in Revelation 4 that the 24 elders already have their crowns before anyone in heaven or on earth or under the earth was found worthy to open the seals, which means that they had their crowns before the Lamb was slain.  You have a chronology problem if you insist that the 24 elders represent new covenant believers.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So how did the 24 elders get their crowns before the Lamb conquered sin and death?  Notice in Revelation 4 that the 24 elders already have their crowns before anyone in heaven or on earth or under the earth was found worthy to open the seals, which means that they had their crowns before the Lamb was slain.  You have a chronology problem if you insist that the 24 elders represent new covenant believers.

They didn't.  Past tense.  Rev 5:9 - You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.  It was John who did not know who was worthy to open the scroll.  Yet one of the elders told him who was worthy.  You need to show us what or who an elder represents and their association to N.T. Believers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:32 AM, Last Daze said:

One small note to make here.  After Jesus' death and resurrection, He was given all authority in heaven and on earth.  Matthew 28:18

He has dominion over all things now although He is not fully exercising that authority.  His enemies are already under His dominion, however, they're not quite ready for judgment yet.  Is that how you see it?

Hi Last Daze,

 

Well said bro. Yes I agree. I think we are going well so far......(I wonder when the bump in the road happens?) (lol)

 

So let`s continue.

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool……

The Lord, is  at your right hand, He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath, He shall judge among the nations,…` (Ps. 110: 1 & 5)

 

Direct Statements.

1.God the Father tells His Son to `sit,`at His right hand.

2. The glorified Son of God is a part of the Godhead, (the Father`s right hand). He is deity.

3. The glorified Son of God is told to wait for His Father to bring His enemies to Him for judgment.

4. The glorified Son of God will then execute judgment over His enemies, putting down all rule and authority.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

Continuing....

So…Do we read of God the Father publically giving His Son the authority to execute the judgments on the rebellious?

`….I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” No one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look at it.

So I wept much because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep, behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.

And I looked. And behold, in the midst of the throne and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb as though it had been slain. Having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat upon the throne….

…many angels….living creature…..and elders….saying with a loud voice,” Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honour and glory and blessing!”

Direct Statements.

1.God the Father, the source of all authority has a `legal document` that is completely sealed up, in His right hand.

2.Only a worthy person is able to take the authority and read the contents.

3.No one in heaven, or earth or under the earth is found worthy.

4.The Lord Jesus Christ`s credentials as a man, as King of Judah and Israel, has prevailed by giving His life as the sacrifice, and thus been found worthy.

5.The Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of the throne, (right hand) in the Godhead, receives the  scroll, taking the authority to execute the judgments therein.

6.The Lord Jesus Christ is then publically acclaimed amid angels, living beings and elders, as worthy to receive the authority and honor etc accorded His high position in their midst.

7. This position in the midst of angels, living beings and elders is in the highest rulership position in the created order.

 

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi fellas,

I thought I`d just make a comment here upon the elders having crowns. We know that crowns means royal authority and only the Lord Jesus Christ can confer that on any one as He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. We also need to realise that the Lord has many crowns and the one in question in Rev 4 & 5 refers to His crown in the Highest position of the created order. He was always a king, - king of heaven, king of glory, king of the ages, king of Judah, king of Israel, etc.

regards, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

They didn't.  Past tense.  Rev 5:9 - You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.  It was John who did not know who was worthy to open the scroll.  Yet one of the elders told him who was worthy.  You need to show us what or who an elder represents and their association to N.T. Believers.

In addition to the chronology error there is the issue of the new song.  What caused the elders to sing this new song?  What was new about it?

• Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.  Revelation 4:11

compared with

• And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”  Revelation 5:9-10

The 24 elders sang this new song because the Lamb had overcome the world and was found worthy to open the seals.

• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Revelation 5:5

The throne scene of Revelation 4 & 5 establishes the worthiness of Jesus to open the seals.  The 24 elders were there before the Lamb overcame sin and death.  They can not possibly represent the new covenant church.

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Well said bro. Yes I agree. I think we are going well so far......(I wonder when the bump in the road happens?) (lol)

So let`s continue.

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool……

The Lord, is  at your right hand, He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath, He shall judge among the nations,…` (Ps. 110: 1 & 5)

 

Direct Statements.

1.God the Father tells His Son to `sit,`at His right hand.

2. The glorified Son of God is a part of the Godhead, (the Father`s right hand). He is deity.

3. The glorified Son of God is told to wait for His Father to bring His enemies to Him for judgment.

4. The glorified Son of God will then execute judgment over His enemies, putting down all rule and authority.

 

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not sure if this is a bump in the road necessarily but I think we need to come to a common understanding concerning the difference between judgment and wrath before proceeding.  I'll describe how I understand the terms and you can agree / disagree.

• Judgment - a determination that has been made which may or may not involves consequences.  God's judgments are ultimate and reflect His view on a matter and are always true and righteous.  God's judgments are not exclusively for the ungodly.  The letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3 contain judgments.  Some of those judgments involve corrective discipline and consequences.  1 Peter 4:17 tells us that judgment begins with the household of God.  There is also judgment of the ungodly.
• Wrath - simply put is anger.  What causes God to become angry is persistent rebellion against His righteous judgments.  Those who agree with His judgments and repent of their rebellion are forgiven.  Those who persist in rejecting His judgments cause Him to become angry and become the objects of His wrath.

I wanted to make that distinction because too often the two terms, along with "tribulation" are erroneously seen as the same thing.  They are all different words and need to be rightly divided.

[Montana Marv]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The throne scene of Revelation 4 & 5 establishes the worthiness of Jesus to open the seals.  The 24 elders were there before the Lamb overcame sin and death.  They can not possibly represent the new covenant church.

Not what the Scriptures convey.   Rev 1:11 - Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches.  Rev 1:19 - Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later.  Now after the letters to the 7 churches, what comes later? Rev 4:1 - After this, I looked up....  Now things to come.  Past tense from the letters to the 7 churches.

Now Satan on the day he was created received. What is listed in Ezk 28:13.  So heaven and earth were created before Lucifer was created.  He was blameless in all his ways until wickedness was found in him.  So day and night existed before Satan was created.

Lets look at 1 Peter 5:1-4 - To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's suffering and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed.  Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers, not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be..... And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.  So I see elders receiving crowns when the Chief Shepherd appears.  Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church.  Acts 15:6 - The apostles and elders met.  Titus1:6 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.  For this what an elder is.

So now the question is when did the Chief Shepherd appear so that the elders could receive their crown/s?  The only ones promised a crown are N.T. Believers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Last Daze]

25 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Not what the Scriptures convey.   Rev 1:11 - Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches.  Rev 1:19 - Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later.  Now after the letters to the 7 churches, what comes later? Rev 4:1 - After this, I looked up....  Now things to come.  Past tense from the letters to the 7 churches.

Now Satan on the day he was created received. What is listed in Ezk 28:13.  So heaven and earth were created before Lucifer was created.  He was blameless in all his ways until wickedness was found in him.  So day and night existed before Satan was created.

Lets look at 1 Peter 5:1-4 - To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's suffering and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed.  Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers, not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be..... And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.  So I see elders receiving crowns when the Chief Shepherd appears.  Acts 14:23 - Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church.  Acts 15:6 - The apostles and elders met.  Titus1:6 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.  For this what an elder is.

So now the question is when did the Chief Shepherd appear so that the elders could receive their crown/s?  The only ones promised a crown are N.T. Believers.

The term "elder" does not uniquely describe a church office.  It simply means someone that's "senior."

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The term "elder" does not uniquely describe a church office.  It simply means someone that's "senior."

So are all elders or seniors as you say, all are blameless, the husband of one wife, with obedient children.  This is what differentiates between one who is qualified to help lead the flock, and one who is not able to lead the flock, no matter what their age.  So your definition does not make the grade.

In Christ

Montana Marv