The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I agree that God's judgment / wrath begins with the first trumpet.

You make a good case for the angel of Rev 8:3 being our High Priest.  Since Jesus being pictured as a Lamb has transitioned to that of a messenger, do you think the seven Spirits of God (who were a part of the Lamb) have likewise transitioned into messengers and are the seven plague angels who sound the trumpets and pour out the bowls?  If not, why not?

 

Hi Last Daze,

 

Jesus has many names, titles and offices. For example -

 

Names - Jesus,  Lamb of God, Emanuel, Ancient of Days, beloved Son, Bread of God, Balm of Gilead, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, beginning and end……etc. 

 

Offices  - High Priest, Prophet, King, Mediator, Judge…etc.

 

You asked -

`....do you think the seven Spirits of God (who were a part of the Lamb) have likewise transitioned into messengers and are the seven plague angels who sound the trumpets and pour out the bowls?  If not, why not? `

As above the Lord is called the Lamb of God, however His ministry is Mediator of the Covenant. One is a name and the other a responsibility.

The `seven spirits` of God, means the seven fold Holy Spirit. (Isa. 11: 1 & 2) And the seven angels with the last of God`s wrath, are just seven angels for the Lord speaks to them from heaven.

`Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels,...` (Rev. 16: 1)

Will do some more tomorrow. Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

What! You say that pre-tribulationists promote no such thing. But you do.

You teach that God's wrath begins at the opening of the first seal, which places the martyred souls who are seen under the altar and their brethren which will also be killed as they were (5th seal) under God's wrath. These are the saints of the great tribulation. These are the last generation of the church who experience unprecedented persecution beginning in the middle of the week up until Christ arrives at His parousia to rescue those who are alive and remain.

Yes.  Tribulation saints are a fly in the pretrib ointment.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

Jesus has many names, titles and offices. For example -

 

Names - Jesus,  Lamb of God, Emanuel, Ancient of Days, beloved Son, Bread of God, Balm of Gilead, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, beginning and end……etc. 

 

Offices  - High Priest, Prophet, King, Mediator, Judge…etc.

 

You asked -

`....do you think the seven Spirits of God (who were a part of the Lamb) have likewise transitioned into messengers and are the seven plague angels who sound the trumpets and pour out the bowls?  If not, why not? `

As above the Lord is called the Lamb of God, however His ministry is Mediator of the Covenant. One is a name and the other a responsibility.

The `seven spirits` of God, means the seven fold Holy Spirit. (Isa. 11: 1 & 2) And the seven angels with the last of God`s wrath, are just seven angels for the Lord speaks to them from heaven.

`Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels,...` (Rev. 16: 1)

Will do some more tomorrow. Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

• But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.  And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.  John 16:7-8

I don't expect that God is going to outsource the conviction of judgment to created beings when it falls within the scope of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  The seven Spirits of God are described in these passages:

• Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.  Revelation 4:5
• And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.  Revelation 5:6

The first passage is BC.  The second is AD.  Concerning the seven angels, it says this:

• And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.  Revelation 8:2

Where is there any other passage that mentions seven beings who are before God? 

Its for those reasons that I see the seven plague angels (with the trumpets and bowls) as the seven Spirits of God.  It's consistent with the ministry of the Holy Spirit who is described as being before the throne (BC) and being part of the Lamb who is before the throne (AD).

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Interesting, but not what I see. Anyway, onwards with our journey to the `catching away.` Just a little `look out stop` at the second part of your comments.

 

You said -`There is also the question of who is being judged, what that judgment is, and what purpose the judgment serves.`  

 

OK, here are my thoughts -

 

Who (specifically) is being judged?

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.” (Ps. 110: 1)

 

So we see that it is the Lord`s enemies that will be judged.

`Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, (Father) and His Anointed, (Jesus) saying, “Let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us.”` (Ps. 2: 1 - 3)

 

Direct Statements.

1.The nations (governments) and the people, (individuals) plot against God.

2.The Kings and rulers, (in various areas) take counsel together to separate themselves, (& those under them) from any connection with God.

[Marilyn C]

What (specifically) is the judgment?

 `…all the green grass…a 1/3<sup>rd</sup> of the trees…1/3<sup>rd</sup> of sea…blood….1/3<sup>rd</sup> …creatures in sea died…rivers…water….bitter…1/3<sup>rd</sup> sun…moon…stars …darkened….torment…..plagues…  1/3<sup>rd</sup> mankind …killed.` (Rev. 8 & 9)

 

Direct Statements.

1.Food bowl touched. (Grass - grain for bread etc, food for animals, Man`s staple diet.)   -great hunger

2.Water touched - great thirst.

3.Less light - reduces food growing capacity.

4.Killings - life itself.

 

`…and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth….and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.` (Rev. 16: 18 & 19)

 

Direct Statements.

1.The Lord will judge the cities of the world.

2.The Lord will judge the World System, (Babylon - religious, Economic and Political).

 

`The kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in caves…from the wrath of the Lamb.` (Rev. 6: 15 & 16)

 

3.The kings, the rulers, and every man will come under the Lamb`s judgments.

[Marilyn C]

What purpose does the judgments serve?

 

`…behold a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues…These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb….they shall neither hunger any more, nor thirst any more, the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat.` (Rev. 7:  9,14 & 16)

 

Direct Statements.

1.People from every nation, tribe, etc turn from their sin to the Lord for salvation.

2.They died of hunger, or thirst or heat.

 

`…and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immortality or their thefts.` (Rev. 9: 21)

 

3.Many people do not repent of their sins and thus continue to come under the Lord`s judgments.

 

`Great and marvellous are your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are your ways O King of the nations. Who shall fear your name? And glorify your name? For you alone are holy, for all nations shall come and worship before you for your judgments have been manifested.` (Rev. 15: 3 & 4)

 

Direct Statements.

1.God alone is holy and does wondrous things.

2.His judgments have been manifested to all as just and true.

3.All nations will come and worship before Him.

 

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`…behold a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues…These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation and washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb….they shall neither hunger any more, nor thirst any more, the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat.` (Rev. 7:  9,14 & 16)

For the sake of brevity, I'm not going to address everything I have an issue with but I will point out this one chronology error that I consider serious.  You indicated that the judgments begin when the seventh seal is opened.  Then you mention this passage as to the purpose of the judgments.

This passage comes after the fifth seal is opened.  How can it be God's judgment it His judgment doesn't begin until two seals later?  And nowhere does it say that they died of  hunger, or thirst, or heat.  Those may have been things that were suffered during captivity during the time of great distress.

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

For the sake of brevity, I'm not going to address everything I have an issue with but I will point out this one chronology error that I consider serious.  You indicated that the judgments begin when the seventh seal is opened.  Then you mention this passage as to the purpose of the judgments.

This passage comes after the fifth seal is opened.  How can it be God's judgment it His judgment doesn't begin until two seals later?  And nowhere does it say that they died of  hunger, or thirst, or heat.  Those may have been things that were suffered during captivity during the time of great distress.

Hi Last Daze,

 

Yes we see some details differently, and they will be good to look at in depth on other threads, perhaps sometime. So onwards and upwards to the `rapture, the catching away.` Now how about a summary of so far, (generally) before I present how I see this all fits in with the `rapture, the catching away.`

 

SUMMARY

 

God the Father told His Son to sit at His right hand till He brings His enemies to His footstool. (Ps. 110: 1)

 

We know that the glorified Son of God went to the Father, in the Godhead, (invisible) far above the created order. He was given all authority in heaven and earth. The Lord Jesus Christ has not moved from the Father, in the Godhead at this time. He awaits His enemies being made His footstool.

 

Now God the Father desires His Son to be publically acclaimed as ruler in the highest rulership position in the created order. He is to be visibly seen and rule from that supreme authority.

 

We remember that Lucifer held authority there as a kingpriest but was found unworthy. There has not been an angel or other being who has held authority in that realm. But we know that one day the glorified Son of God will move from the Father`s throne, and be visibly crowned in the angelic realm. Only He has been found worthy to rule there.

 

This will occur, we are told when the Father brings His enemies to His footstool for judgment.

 

`God the Father said, “Sit at my right hand (in the Godhead - invisible) until I make your enemies your footstool.” (ready for judgment when the Lord manifests Himself, visibly, in the Highest place in the created order.)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So onwards and upwards to the `rapture, the catching away.`

Okay, let's wrap it up.

[Marilyn C]

25 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Okay, let's wrap it up.

Hi Last Daze,

Good, does that mean you agree that the Lord will manifest Himself publically and visibly from the Father`s throne (Godhead / invisible) to the rulership in the angelic realm, (visible) the highest rulership in the created order, which is under the Godhead. (Jesus obviously is in both areas, if I can put it that way.)

Marilyn.