The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

40 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Good, does that mean you agree that the Lord will manifest Himself publically and visibly from the Father`s throne (Godhead / invisible) to the rulership in the angelic realm, (visible) the highest rulership in the created order, which is under the Godhead. (Jesus obviously is in both areas, if I can put it that way.)

Marilyn.

Not sure what you mean by "publicly" but at His second coming every eye will see Him, as the lightning flashes from the east to the west.

• For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.  Matthew 24:27
• Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.  Revelation 1:7

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Not sure what you mean by "publicly" but at His second coming every eye will see Him, as the lightning flashes from the east to the west.

• For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.  Matthew 24:27
• Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.  Revelation 1:7

Hi Last Daze,

I agree that when the Lord comes to earth then all those on the earth at that time will see Him.

However, I was referring to when the Lord moves from the Father`s throne in the Godhead, (invisible) to be manifest in the angelic realm. The Father says that will be when He places his enemies under his feet ready for judgment. This will be when the glorified Son of God, (& Son of Man) receives the scroll, (type of legal document) in the visible realm as angels etc are watching.

Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

I agree that when the Lord comes to earth then all those on the earth at that time will see Him.

However, I was referring to when the Lord moves from the Father`s throne in the Godhead, (invisible) to be manifest in the angelic realm. The Father says that will be when He places his enemies under his feet ready for judgment. This will be when the glorified Son of God, (& Son of Man) receives the scroll, (type of legal document) in the visible realm as angels etc are watching.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not ready to concede that "leaving the Father's right hand" is the equivalent of "taking the scroll out of the Father's right hand."  I will agree with you though that God's judgment begins when the seventh seal is opened.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not ready to concede that "leaving the Father's right hand" is the equivalent of "taking the scroll out of the Father's right hand."  I will agree with you though that God's judgment begins when the seventh seal is opened.

Hi Last Daze,

So....where do you see the glorified Lord Jesus when He is judging His enemies?

Marilyn. 

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

So....where do you see the glorified Lord Jesus when He is judging His enemies?

Marilyn. 

Hi Marilyn,

Where is Jesus when the seventh seal is opened?  That's when the time of judgment / wrath begins.  And who is it that gets judged first?  Unbelievers?  No.

• I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues.  Revelation 18:4

Those believers who continue in the sins of Babylon will receive the judgment of the plagues as God's last call to repent before Jesus returns to destroy the wicked.  The judgment of the plagues will progressively get worse, which is what you'd expect of corrective discipline.  After all who are going to repent have done so, the bowls of wrath are poured out on the hard-hearted and they are destroyed.  The meek who repented will inherit the earth.

• If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.  He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.  John 12:47-48

The seven plagues serve the purpose of segregating the repentant from the hard-hearted.  They will reveal who keeps the sayings of Jesus and who does not.  Those who do not keep His sayings are judged on the last day, after they have clearly demonstrated that they are His enemies.

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

 

Hi Last Daze,

Lots to discuss there bro, at some time, but for now let`s focus.

What I am wanting to know, is when do you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ, in His glorified body, visibly rules from the third heaven.

Marilyn.

[Christine]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:52 AM, Marilyn C said:

However, I was referring to when the Lord moves from the Father`s throne in the Godhead, (invisible) to be manifest in the angelic realm. The Father says that will be when He places his enemies under his feet ready for judgment. This will be when the glorified Son of God, (& Son of Man) receives the scroll, (type of legal document) in the visible realm as angels etc are watching.

‘For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
.. that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord 
.... shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, 
.. with the voice of the archangel, 
.... and with the trump of God: 
...... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
........ Then we which are alive and remain 
.......... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, 
............ to meet the Lord in the air: 
.............. and so shall we ever be with the Lord.’
(1 Thess 4:15-17)  

Hello Marilyn,

Your words to @Last Daze, quoted above, may be how you envisage the course of events, but is it what Scripture itself tells us will happen?

The Lord will be manifested in glory I agree, for Colossians 3:3-4 tell us so. but we are not told that the sequence of events will be in the order that you describe. In fact these verses in Colossians describe the hope of the church which is the Body of Christ, 'the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' That company will 'appear' with him in glory when He Himself appears. 

‘For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
.. When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, 
.... then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
(Col 3:3-4)

Praise God! 

* The hope which is being discussed in this thread quoted above from 1 Thess. 4, is not the hope of the church which is the Body of Christ, there will be no trumpet call, or voice of the archangel to herald their appearing with their Head in glory. The archangel being associated with Israel.

* You need to consider the company being spoken to, and the time it was spoken, in light of the further revelation given to Paul following the laying aside (temporarily) of the nation of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period. 

* The church which is the Body of Christ, look for His 'appearing', not for His 'coming'. Titus 2:13:-

‘Looking for that blessed hope, 
and the glorious appearing 
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ ... ’
(Tit 2:13)  

* 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim 4:1; 2 Tim. 4:8 - these verse show that Christ's 'appearing' (epiphaneia) and the event described in Colossians 3:3-4, take place immediately prior to His coming in judgement. 

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Christine

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Lots to discuss there bro, at some time, but for now let`s focus.

What I am wanting to know, is when do you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ, in His glorified body, visibly rules from the third heaven.

Marilyn.

• Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”  And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.  Revelation 11:15-17

This looks to me like when Jesus begins to reign.

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

•  

Hi Last Daze,

So can we agree that when the Lord is on His own throne, then He will judge His enemies and become the ruler over the kingdoms of the world?

Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

So can we agree that when the Lord is on His own throne, then He will judge His enemies and become the ruler over the kingdoms of the world?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Who are the enemies of Jesus?  Aren't they those who reject Him and do not receive His sayings?

• If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.  He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.  John 12:47-48

The judging of the enemies of Jesus takes place on the last day.  It is the counterpart to the resurrection / changing of believers that takes place on the last day.  Those who are judged to be Christ's put on immortality, the dead first and then those alive.  Those who rejected Jesus don't put on immortality until later, the dead stay dead and those alive are killed.  This "judging of the dead" (which results in immortality or not) takes place at the seventh trumpet.

• And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:18

Jesus judges His enemies when He returns to earth on the last day (of Satan's reign).  Until then, His purpose is to save the world as the above verse states.  So, no, I don't think Jesus judges His enemies while on His throne.  He does that when He returns to earth on the last day.