Are our pastors leading us astray?

[Drew54]

20 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Are our pastors leading us astray? 

Mine isnt.

But sometimes members at worthy try and lead others astray. Not naming names, but wow the junk that comes through sometimes here from so called teachers and preachers. 

Any pastor that preach the gospel or prosperity or anything that is politically correct is wrong. That is why I love my pastor. He is devout, has a outstanding family life with a family of all Christians and he has a deep passion to see the lost saved and preaches straight from the bible with plenty of biblical cross referencing. 

[Gideon]

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, I suggest  that it is not a matter of eye, ears, and parts of the body of Christ. It is instead the distraction by many litle antichrists, and by those deceived by them, saying the church is a dead place there is no living body at all, don't go there, don't partake, don't contribute, don't try to please God in all that you do, just lament and lament some more and stay away.

All those voicing the laments are not serving our Lord's will for us, they are in my opinion being suckered by the little antichrists among us even today. They are being defeated and separated from the body of Christ His church. And, as is the case in most things, misery loves company and is encouraged by the naysaying and the laments. 

Even Dr. David Reagan within his very fine presentations on prophecy has gone into a mode of defeat, stating America is now beyond redemption and will fail to exist at all, being eliminated by God. Such defeatism serves no good far as I see.  

God will save whom He will. He will not be defeated, nor will the church of Jesus who is God Lord and personal savior of all those given Him by His father. As for me, I am confident in Christ, in His church, and as a member of a local body of Christ I cherish all opportunity to be  of some service, any service at all that God will lead me to  do. I will strive to not be defeated, not as long as God gives me the comfort of his local body of Christ made up of the many saints, each born again and giving their own testimony of and in service to the Glory of God.

Praise God, especially for  His mercy, grace and long suffering patience.

It’s not that the church is dead, but that it is by and large unfruitful that is the concern. We are healed, but only slightly. The even bigger concern is that it does not bother us. If by chance, we are blessed to have found a Godly fellowship, with a pastor who loves the Lord and spends his time in prayer and study of God’s word, interceding for those in his congregation to grow in holiness and victory, praise God. This still should not relieve us of being burdened for the health  of th church as a whole. 

As a whole, few will argue that the western church is seriously eroded from the truth of walking in purity and victory over the world, the flesh and the devil. 

Here is the problem. Many have said that their church is not eroded, that they teach biblical principles, repentance, hatred of sin.  But are these walking in victory and joy, with satan’s arrows thwarted each and every time by their shields of faith held high? Those in the larger churches, where warm fuzzies have replaced the above listed principles, are they all bound for hell? Why are they there to begin with? Most started with the “balanced churches” but found that they could not walk the walk and became tired of the guilt and always having to repent. 

I am in no way defending what they have settled for, lowering the standard to make them feel comfortable and loved. That is grievous error to be sure. It is, as I have stated in the past, turning the grace of God into lasciviousness.  But may I play the devil’s advocate for a moment? Why did they leave? Simply because no one showed them HOW to overcome. All they heard was DO THIS or AVOID THAT, but guys, that is not life. That is not freedom. That is not victory. That is simply error on the flip side of grace. 

Here, these take pride in the fact that they have refused to lower the standard, and that is a good thing. We must hate sin. We must avoid loving the world and all its baubles. We must know how to possess our vessels in sanc....... do you see where this is going? Those on the opposite end of the spectrum, while holding up parts of the standard, have totally ignored critical parts of it, such as loving as Christ loved, or walking in holiness or hating one’s own life. 

Neither side is guiltless. With painfully few exceptions, the standard of holiness unto the Lord is not being walked out by either camp. The world looks on and sees both sides as hypocrites, for neither one is walking in purity of heart and single eyed devotion to God. 

Here is the standard we need to proclaim, no matter what position it puts us in. 

Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. 

Let he who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Thou shalt love the Lotd your God with ALL your heart and your neighbor as yourself. 

Those four ought to suffice to shut all our mouths and admit we are not walking there, amen? 

Is it pleasant to come to this point? Nope. Shall we not do as we are commanded? What did Joel tell us to do in a situation like we find ourselves? 

 

Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord , and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

Joel 2:17

We want to defend ourselves, yet there is no defense for what we are trying to pass off our take on Christianity as the best God can do, so that we are .... conveniently....guiltless. When we finally come to the place where we admit it, and stop our infighting as to why our way is better than their way, and ALL of us fall on our knees and cry out to God to show us what we are missing as to HOW to be able to walk in victory over the world, our own flesh and it’s pride and love for sin, and the devil and all his devices that trip us up on a daily basis, only then will our answer come. 

What is holding that back? Simply our pride and contentment without possessing single eyed, holy, love-filled  hearts. Like Laodecia, we are quite content right where we are. We do not think we need anything. Is it any wonder why the last harvest is not yet? For the Lord tells us in Ezekiel 36 that the heathen will know that He is the Lord, when He shall be sanctified IN US before their very eyes. And that brothers and sisters, has not yet occurred. But..... it is coming. 

After God spoke the above word in Joel, He continues....

”Then (after we break in humility and need before Him) will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen.

Joel 2:18

Our awakening is coming. For some early risers, those whose sins went before them,  it has already arrived. But God is not returning for a church in disarray, with all arguing that their way is better ,but with none displaying that better way so that others may follow. Some will argue that this must be false doctrine because the apostate church is the one pushing this “grand awakening”.  This awakening of which I speak is not a revival as we understand it, led by overflowing emotions, following prideful leaders looking for power and followers. Let the apostate have theirs. The one I speak of is begins in brokenness and hunger and then with God Himself showing us how to abide in Him in real manifest love and victory. 

Our ability to walk as overcomers rather than as the religious overcome is our birthright. Every single person who loves the Lord, no matter how weak, will, before the Lord, returns, be able to stare down the devil when he comes tempting them. Every single soul will be filled so full with God’s love for them that it will overflow on all that are around them. We have been promised that we will walk FREE INDEED, in full victory over the world, the flesh and the devil. Praise God! . 

The question is, can we admit that we need such a thing, both personally and corporately? We hear talk of the latter rain, but all we have received up till now are a few mercy drops. We haven’t seen anything yet.  In the book of Acts, they received a deluge of love and power and holiness and in their generation, turned the entire world upside down. Unbelieving men would exclaim “Behold how they love one another!” Ananias and Saphira became  object lessons on what God thinks of any who would rob God of glory to take some for themselves. 

One cannot read their exploits and not be amazed at their joy in the face of great persecution, the nightly miracles that God performed thru lowly hearted sold out men of God,  and their hunger for souls to come to know the Jesus they knew.  There can be no doubt, the gap is as wide as the Grand Canyon between what they possessed, or more accurately, who possessed them, and what our modern Christianity has accepted as the best God can do. 

But can I tell you a secret? As wonderful and powerful that initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit was.... are you ready? ..... ours will be greater. Listen to what God says to us, again through Joel. Make no mistake this is OUR prophecy.... 

“Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.”

Joel 2:19

What must happen for this outpouring to drench us in a walk of victory and love. We must admit that we need it. Tears must flow. Hearts must become broken. We must acknowledge that we are not in any way, shape or form living the standard so that the lost will know that our God is THE God. We must hate our own lives, called our old nature, and long to know ho to rid ourselves of it, for only then will we be able to stand up to satan’s devices. 

A new day is dawning on the church as we know it, with wheat and tares growing together. The mother of all church splits is about to take place. They are about to be separated. 

Some hearts are, even now, being softened to receive their new natures from our God. Hunger for more, more victory, more abiding in Him, more power in prayer..... is growing.  These natures, who we really are inside, can and will be molded by the master potter into glorious vessels fit for His use.

Others will hear the cost that needs to be counted, and dig in their heels and walk away from God. These will have hardened hearts from sins they do not want to leave behind, and refuse to admit their need, staunchly defending the indefensible, a Christianity without Christ’s love in their hearts. This is the great falling away.

To the hungry, I say, God has a blessing for you that will overtake you, no matter how you may feel you are a lost cause. To those content with a Christianity without life, may God open your eyes of your understanding that you may finally see how deep God’s grace really flows, that He has promised to cause us to walk obediently to a Him in all things, and that we need such a Christianity in order to not bring shame to His name. 

And when we are finally awakened in full, the final harvest will commence. Those in the world will see the church as she was meant to be, displayed in the  beauty of holiness. Those who love the light, but who have avoided what we have called church because of our lack of life, will run to get what we possess. And they will say:

”Look! That which bore only briars and thongs has become again like the garden of Eden!”

Yes, Lord. So be it. Let it rain. 

 

Blessings, 

Gideon

 

 

[Neighbor]

4 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

2Th 2:2-3

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Ti 4:3

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

I'm just reasoning with you Neighbour.  Do you believe that Jesus is returning soon?  And that conditions in the world are ripening for the son of perdition to come on the scene?  If so, then where is the falling away?.....it must be occurring if we are near the end.....?

I'm sure you have noticed that our formerly Christian societies have fallen away from adhering to Christian laws and morals........and that is the proof in the pudding that the church in general has fallen away and is no longer salty......it has lost ground and is no longer leavening and having dominion over the society around it. 

It's not that the Lord isn't in control over all these things....but it's about seeing what He is doing and what He is allowing to happen as foretold.  It serves no purpose at all to deny what is taking place in reality.......shouldn't we face it and be preparing for what comes next?  That is why we have been given prophecy so we  have an idea of the time and season we are in, and that day doesn't come on us unaware.  We need to be watching.

Yes "we" definitely should, but I don't think  sitting around at home lamenting the condition of a local body of christ Jesus stating that it is not good enough for me to go try to participate in is doing much to further that effort.  

"we" need be about much more than watching. Each saint need be listening to the Hoy Spirit,  praying and reading the word of God and doing all things to the glory of God. To me lamenting is not much of an effort in that direction. It is just old fashioned carping and finding of excuse to do nothing much at all.

There is much that the Holy Spirit will direct each of us to be doing if we ask and keep asking. As for myself He dragged me clean across coutry no less than three times to local bodies of Christ Jesus to do little duties, but mostly to teach me.

[Neighbor]

3 hours ago, Yowm said:

Seeing such things as the acceptance of abortIon, gay marriage, Israel hatred, denial of the bible as the Word of God, ALL IN THE CHURCH, one would have to be wearing rose color glasses not to discern the apostasy going on and warn others.

I believe this verse applies when stating 'All those voicing the laments are not serving our Lord's will for us'...

Romans 14:4 NKJV
[4] Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

 

Stating the obvious is in my opinion the doing of nothing. Instead one could be about the local community at the least, sharing the gospel of Jesus, helping the women  with unwanted pregancy,  aiding the widows and orphans of the body of christ jesus, standing beside very family of the local body of Christ with a child, funding Christian education schools sacrifically.

Be pro active and  not  a sounding board of many laments. Lamenting is a lazy man's game, one that makes him feel he is doing something when in fact he does nothing  much that is useful and much that is harmful as he seeks company for his misery. Don't be a failure in faith, be an activist in it, be a winner not a whiner. That is my point.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Gideon said:

 But are these walking in victory and joy, with satan’s arrows thwarted each and every time by their shields of faith held high?

I can only testify yes. Yes the local bodies of Christ Jesus that the Holy Spirit has led me to certainly do. Again I share that is my testimony of my experiences  with my brothers an sisters in Christ over a long period of time.

[warrior12]

1 hour ago, Gideon said:

But may I play the devil’s advocate for a moment? Why did they leave? Simply because no one showed them HOW to overcome. All they heard was DO THIS or AVOID THAT, but guys, that is not life. That is not freedom. That is not victory. That is simply error on the flip side of grace. 

While teaching is a most important function of the Church, the individual must be teachable too and avail himself. As I said before in this thread, whatever is the theology of a Church, it is that which it will preach and  teach.  The charismatics and Pentecostal vary vastly in some beliefs and especially in  the area of Christians and his prosperity here on earth.  

Here again I state that a believer must search scripture and yearn to seek out answers to questions that may he may stumble or have doubts about.  If he simply adopt what they heard and were taught and not compare it with scripture, then they just become another one in the line or as the saying goes  "monkey see, monkey do" meaning, just imitating what the leaders told or taught them, without comparing it with scripture.   

You may then ask, why do many follow after the so called prosperity gospel ect.  Reasons can be plenty, but, some may have difficulties and desperate to come out, they see the lifestyles of others and want it, others  may have and just want more to satisfy or justify their lavish lifestyle, while others may just think in their mind it is the word after a preacher has finish preaching about Abraham and his wealth.  

So,  the believer then has to spend the time and to listen and learn and question what he is hearing also.   There are many valuable resources available free on the internet today to do comparative study and hear multiple views on a topic and subject.

Sin, Salvation , Repentance and the other warnings I think are known by all believers.  Like the  1 Psalm, it shows how a believer is blessed and stays the course, by meditating on the word night and day and not sitting with scoffers and the sort.  What is the common theme in the scripture verses below.... "I".

 

  Psalm 119 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁵ I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

¹⁶ I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

¹⁷ Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.

¹⁸ Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

¹⁹ I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

²⁰ My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.

                                                                                                                                   

[Neighbor]

Well okay, since I am some what the minority it seems,  let me say "my church" which is so obviously not my church  but my Lord's has been filled by the Holy Spirit with the most astounding individuals of faith and of practice of faith of Jesus that I am always amazed at what  is being done by them individually throughout this world and within the neighborhood and the church body itself. I can make a list I suppose, but will even that satisfy the ones that seem to want the churches to seem to be be failures and not the vibrant determined body of Christ Jesus that they are ?

The church is testimony that the naysayers are wrongheaded, deceived, or even in some situations deliberate deceivers serving another god. This local body is not alone in the wilderness, but it is full,  full of saints that will care, and care for one another, and will and do go into all the world  with the gospel, and it does not ignore the local neighbor either.

 I do feel so saddened at the posts that lament without let up, and do not bring any glory to God instead only disparagements of  His churches as though  the Holy Spirit is unable to  raise up  members for the local bodies of Christ Jesus.

The local body  God has led me to is absolutely filled  with the workers of and for the gospel. They do not seek out recognition. They do what they do in the name of Jesus to God's glory alone. And so I hestitate to elaborate on their individual efforts, for it will likely not cause many that lament to cease and to participate instead. They will just continue to seek company for their sense of misery. Misery does love company a lesson just recently emphasized in the secular book  with biblical references by Scott Hamilton titled "Finish First" "winning changes everything". He strongly states that losing is what most people do, and what most people seek out in others - company for losing for it is comfortable to lose, and hard very hard to be winning. It is a good read and a great practice to begin- win don't lose.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Neighbor

[LadyKay]

On 8/4/2018 at 10:59 PM, Gideon said:

Consider: When was the last time you heard a sermon with any sort of a warning, an exhortation, or a rebuke coming from the pulpit of your church?

If I may chime in here. I think there needs to be a balance when it comes to sermons. I see little good coming from a pastor preaching to people who are already saved, the need to be saved. In every church there is a mix of people. Some are saved. Some are far from being saved, others are saved but have not grown very much in their faith. There are more but that's all I think of right now. Anyway while I do think it is important to have sermons on warning people about going to hell; I think it is just as important to have sermons on how you are to live your Christian life and other such topics. Such as your prayer life and trusting God in all things. So a whole balance is what I think is good to have. 

 

[warrior12]

22 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

The church is testimony that the naysayers are wrongheaded, deceived, or even in some situations deliberate deceivers serving another god. This local body is not alone in the wilderness, but it is full,  full of saints that will care, and care for one another, and will and do go into all the world  with the gospel, and it does not ignore the local neighbor either.

Many today see the Church as profiteering and abstain or wants nothing to do with it. But as the Lord as said,  Mat 16:18 "The gates of hell shall not  prevail against it ".  So your testimony is right on brother, keep proclaiming the truth of the reality ,that is your witness where your serve.

[Guest shiloh357]

33 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

If I may chime in here. I think there needs to be a balance when it comes to sermons. I see little good coming from a pastor preaching to people who are already saved, the need to be saved.

Actually, there is a lot of good in that.   He is teaching them not only theology, but he is teaching them what to say to sinners when they share the Gospel with them out on "the street."   Many people say that they don't witness because they don't what to say.  They should sit under a preacher that teaches how to be saved every Sunday and they will learn what to say and how to say it. And they can always follow up with the pastor, personally if they have questions.

Quote

In every church there is a mix of people. Some are saved. Some are far from being saved, others are saved but have not grown very much in their faith. There are more but that's all I think of right now. Anyway while I do think it is important to have sermons on warning people about going to hell; I think it is just as important to have sermons on how you are to live your Christian life and other such topics. Such as your prayer life and trusting God in all things. So a whole balance is what I think is good to have. 

That's why churches have additional Bible study opportunities like Sunday School, and small group Bible studies and why we should also be studying Scripture on our own as well.   It is not the pastor's job to grow you up spiritually.   That is your job.   The pastor can exhort and teach to some degree, but it is impossible for him to craft sermons or teachings that address every need of every Christian, at every stage of development in their walk with God.   You must take responsibility for feeding yourself in the Word of God.