The Restrainer.....Who....When

[ARGOSY]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

`But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the HEAVENS WILL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the ELEMENTS WILL MELT WITH FERVENT  HEAT; both the EARTH AND THE WORKS that are in it WILL BE BURNED UP. `(2 Peter 3: 10)

Final end of the earth and heavens.

Marilyn.

The sky passes by, the sky rolls by. Think of the one seeing the vision, seeing something like volcanic or nuclear caused clouds rolling rapidly across the sky, but in such massive proportions that the atmosphere is changed forever going into the millennium. 

The word for heavens does not mean "universe" but means what we see in the sky above us. Sure land and works will be burnt up. And elements (rocks and sand) will melt. This kind of thing occurs in modern wars. 

You may think I'm undermining the dramatic language of 2 Peter 3, on the contrary I have done careful studies on the meaning of each word in Greek during my discussions with amillenialists on other websites and wish to be true to the original Greek. The Greek says land will burn, English says "the Earth will burn".  At the second coming we actually know which lands will burn eg Edom, the Greek is more accurate than the English.

 

Then we get descriptions like Ezekiel 40-48 in which an entire new landscape is described, with the river flowing from Jerusalem giving life to the land.  Thus we have a new land full of life, a new sky, probably darker and more rainfall and reddish moon from the dust. The phrase "new land and new sky" is both a Messianic Age situation and a post-millenial situation.  I therefore see no need for an extended DOTL. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by ARGOSY

[Diaste]

On 3/23/2019 at 4:39 PM, iamlamad said:

Perhaps you established that to YOUR satisfaction - but what you wrote is simply not what John wrote. Read it again:

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

It is the REVEALING that is being restrained or held back.

NIV:  And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

ESV:  And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

NASB:  And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

There is a force that is restraining or holding back the man of sin. But for what purpose? It is clear: to prevent him from being revealed until the proper time. 

NIV:  7  ... but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8  And then the lawless one will be revealed...

ESV: 7... Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.  8  And then the lawless one will be revealed...

NASB: 7 ...only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.  8  Then that lawless one will be revealed...

Again it is VERY clear: the restraining is to prevent the revealing of the man of sin. We have seen this now in two different verses each in three translations - all saying the same thing.

Here it is again in the Rotherham Emphasized Bible:

7...only, until, he that restraineth at present, shall be gone, out of the midst: 8  And, then, shall be revealed the lawless one...

So your theory: "The Coming and the Gathering is held back" is total myth. The scripture is very clear here. 

I assume you meant Paul. You said John, but John did not write this, it was Paul. "1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy," - 2 Thess 1

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, (Cannot escape this context of the Coming and Gathering occurring together)

we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 

Let no one deceive you in any way,

for it will not come  (The Day of the Lord)

until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.  (Obviously the Day of the Lord is after the Rebellion and the Revealing. If that's true then we have to maintain the order through out the chapter especially since the whole idea here is when the Day of the Lord is coming, and NOT the rise of the beast.)

He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? (Paul taught this face to face, not in a letter.)

And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. (If the context is the Coming and the Gathering and what must happen before the Coming and the Gathering, then this verse when taken in the same context tells us what is being restrained and by what. It's Jesus return that is awaiting the rise of the beast and the rebellion of God's children. You would have us believe that the order is now topsy turvy from the order Paul set in a previous verse, "for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.")

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work,

but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. (This is taken from the Berean Study Bible and says it much better, "...the one who now restrains..." can only be the man of sin as established earlier. Since the order is 'the day won't come before the revealing' and the context is when 'the day' will occur of necessity the one who restrains is the man of sin. 'Taken out of the way' in the same vein as the order and context of the entire passage would then mean the revealing is past. The hidden beast is now revealed and the beast no longer has a hidden nature as it's, 'taken out of the way' and replaced by the overt nature. And it is that hidden nature that must be done away with before the Coming and the Gathering.)

And then the lawless one will be revealed, (the lawless one will be no longer hidden but overt which fits with the previous verse and commentary.)

You'll see soon enough. If we all are still alive when it begins. I do suppose we will know in any case.

Blessings my friend. I do not forget that you are my brother even if I oppose certain positions. Forgive me if I offend gratuitously. 

 

[Spock]

Wow, it seems like this discussion is getting bogged down in details. I’m not sure what you guys are debating here because it seems the passage in 2 Thess 2 is pretty clear:

Before the DOTL can occur, two things have to happen (precede):

1. Rebellion/apostasy

2. Revealing of the man of sin

Something or someone is holding back the revealing. I believe this means the restraint has to be removed first before the man of sin does his abomination thing in t(e temple.

All we have to do is figure out the identity of the restrainer, right?  (Do me a favor and leave out Rosenthal’s Michael......I cringe when I read that one. Thanks)  

Now I understand “his identity” is up in the air, but everything else should be mutually agreed upon by all parties because the word is clear enough I think for us to agree.

spock

btw, I love your graciousness diaste.....I’m sure Jesus does too (they will know me by their love for one another) 

[iamlamad]

57 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me present the conundrum that you obviously do not see.   Notice what it says about the kingdom in the following scripture:

Verse list:    
Luk 21:29-32 KJV    And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the KINGDOM of God is NIGH at HAND . Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

When you SEE ALL of these things come to pass,  Jesus said to them (whoever them is [Christian or Jew] ,  it really doesn't matter)  that the kingdom of God (and their redemption) would be nigh,  meaning it is near.   You can't say that he meant that it would immediately,  as in that day,  happen,  because if it did you truly would know of that day.   But he said that it would be NEAR.   I don't think that you would deny that the kingdom of God is going to come at the sounding of the 7th trumpet...

IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70TH week, 3.5 years BEFORE the end.   Would you call that near?   But let's go on further.   

Let's restate with clarity,  what Jesus is saying.   The (future) sounding of that 7th trumpet will be NEAR,  when all of these things that I have spoken to you here in the Olivet Discourse have taken place (past tense).  Do you see what that says?   All of the signs that I have just told you about... will take place BEFORE the 7th trumpet sounds.   I (Jesus)  am not telling you any thing that will take place in the 2nd half of the 70th week.   If HIS coming (I'll get to this shortly) is still 3.5 years away and you don't know of anything that will take place during this time,  how could it be NEAR,  or of what event is there yet to watch for, if it's still 3.5 years away? 

Next,  we have Jesus saying that the kingdom would be near AFTER he told them about [Matthew says in verse 30 that it is the SIGN of] HIS COMING.   

IS this:

1. Another sign (that he spoke to THEM of his coming kingdom?, OR 

2. Referring to his kingdom that was going to come 3.5 years later?  Near???

If this actual coming is referring to the Kingdom that was going to come 3.5 years later, (NIGH), this should have  been placed within the text of the discourse,  AFTER the time in the text when he says,  "when you see ALL these things come to pass ".   Besides that,  his coming at Armageddon would not be a sign that precedes his coming at Armageddon, i.e., it's not a sign, And therefore it adds tremendous confusion to WHEN he is coming (because it is not a sign) 

UNLESS,  

this "coming in the clouds with glory" actually is a sign that precedes his coming AT ARMAGEDDON, meaning that he is speaking of the event of the rapture.   If IT is speaking of the rapture(irregardless of the timing),  then that means he is in fact speaking to "them" and the signs that THEY were being told about actually applies to them, AND US.  

If he is only speaking to the Jews,  (At this juncture,  I don't discount the relevance of that), and that "his coming with power & glory" IS A SIGN [Matt 24:30] of his coming [later] at Armageddon, then, Jesus is giving us (indirectly,  because he is speaking TO  the Jews) the timing of WHEN the sign of the rapture will take place.   As one of the "signs" given to the Jews,  it is the LAST sign that Jesus said would be given before the...(wait for it) before the 7th trumpet sounds. 

So,  either way,  IF the Olivet Discourse is only directed at the Jews,  he is telling them that the "rapture sign" will be the last sign that they will see before he comes at Armageddon.   OR, IF he is speaking to his followers (in the church), then he is telling us, that the rapture,  [as not being a sign to US] will be preceded by ALL of the other signs mentioned by Jesus.   Either way,  the arrival of the Kingdom of God at the 7th trumpet is the last prophesied event, to watch for, [in itself,  it is not one of the signs that Jesus gave] to take place before Jesus comes at Armageddon.

Blessings

The PuP 

Here is where you went off:  " I don't think that you would deny that the kingdom of God is going to come at the sounding of the 7th trumpet..."

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God was within.  It was then, and STILL IS. The physical kingdom will come, but when? At the 7th trumpet?  No, not at the 7th trumpet. The physical kingdom of God won't come until the millennial kingdom is set up, and that could be on the 1125th day or perhaps later, but CERTAINLY some time after the Beast and False Prophet is taken, which will be after the 70th week.  Therefore we disagree on the main point.

It seems you are trying to prove a posttrib rapture. He was not speaking of the rapture. No amount of arguments can make that be true, because it simply is not true. He was speaking to Jewish men about the end of their age. That end would be the 70th week. All of this week is ahead of us. By the way, it is wise to FORM doctrine from the most complete treatise of a subject. For end times that would be Revelation. Jesus only gave a very brief outline.  If you refer to Revelation, John saw the raptured church already in heaven in chapter 7 before the week has begun.

If we read the Olivet Discourse in its entirety from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we can see that many of these things HAVE come to pass. In fact, we have passed the 70 year mark from when Israel became a nation.

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Luke disagrees with you. 

Verse list:    
Luk 17:20-30 KJV    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 Jesus disagrees with you. 

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luk 21:31 KJV    So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 Paul disagrees with you. 

2Ti 4:1 KJV    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

John & great voices disagree. 

Rev 11:15 KJV    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I'll side with them. 

Blessings

The PuP 

I don't think I am disagreeing with any of them. 

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.   He is not yet revealed. It is AT LEAST 7 plus years into the future.

Luk 21:31 KJV    So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Has Israel seen Jerusalem surrounded? Not in a very long time! So still in the future. That is one of the things Jesus mentioned.

2Ti 4:1 KJV    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;  He has not come as a judge yet: see Rev. 19.

Rev 11:15 KJV    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  When I was at a closing, the property legally became MINE at the closing. But I was not there at the property I did not go there until the next day. 

At the 7th seal the kingdoms of the world LEGALLY became Jesus' property. But He is not going to take physical ownership until Rev. 19.

It would be wise to side with them - I certainly do.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I assume you meant Paul. You said John, but John did not write this, it was Paul. "1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy," - 2 Thess 1

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, (Cannot escape this context of the Coming and Gathering occurring together)

we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 

Let no one deceive you in any way,

for it will not come  (The Day of the Lord)

until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.  (Obviously the Day of the Lord is after the Rebellion and the Revealing. If that's true then we have to maintain the order through out the chapter especially since the whole idea here is when the Day of the Lord is coming, and NOT the rise of the beast.)

He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? (Paul taught this face to face, not in a letter.)

And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. (If the context is the Coming and the Gathering and what must happen before the Coming and the Gathering, then this verse when taken in the same context tells us what is being restrained and by what. It's Jesus return that is awaiting the rise of the beast and the rebellion of God's children. You would have us believe that the order is now topsy turvy from the order Paul set in a previous verse, "for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.")

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work,

but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. (This is taken from the Berean Study Bible and says it much better, "...the one who now restrains..." can only be the man of sin as established earlier. Since the order is 'the day won't come before the revealing' and the context is when 'the day' will occur of necessity the one who restrains is the man of sin. 'Taken out of the way' in the same vein as the order and context of the entire passage would then mean the revealing is past. The hidden beast is now revealed and the beast no longer has a hidden nature as it's, 'taken out of the way' and replaced by the overt nature. And it is that hidden nature that must be done away with before the Coming and the Gathering.)

And then the lawless one will be revealed, (the lawless one will be no longer hidden but overt which fits with the previous verse and commentary.)

You'll see soon enough. If we all are still alive when it begins. I do suppose we will know in any case.

Blessings my friend. I do not forget that you are my brother even if I oppose certain positions. Forgive me if I offend gratuitously. 

 

Of course you are free to believe all that, but it shows a lack of understanding of the intent of the Author.  Yes, we will all see soon enough. 

(If the context is the Coming and the Gathering and what must happen before the Coming and the Gathering, then this verse when taken in the same context tells us what is being restrained and by what.

Your whole theory is wrong because it is based on false premises:  Yes, the context is His coming and the gathering - that is the theme of the passage - but from there you go off on a tangent from truth. It (the departing) is what must happen before the revealing of the man of sin because when He is revealed all will know THE DAY has come.

They were not upset thinking about His coming. They were upset because they thought perhaps they were INSIDE the Day of the Lord - that THE DAY had started and they were not caught up before it as Paul had taught them. 

So Paul is going to teach them both of the timing of the coming and gathering, but HOW it relates to the DAY.  He tells them the departing (of the church) must come FIRST (Just as he had taught them in his first letter) and then the man of sin would be revealed. Then, all would know that THE DAY had started. Why? Because the revealing comes AFTER the DAY has started. John proves this also. 

But then Paul emphasized a point: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until after the church is gone, for it is the church holding back the man of sin before his time.

In other words, it is NOT what must happen before the coming, but what must happen before the revealing. The restraing force must be removed first, or the man of sin cannot be revealed.

[iamlamad]

59 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Daniel,  Matthew, Luke,  John,  Paul & Jesus never said that Jesus would be here when the kingdom of God is come,  a la set up.  That is the mistake you make

Verse list:    

D*[[Dan 2:44]] KJV* And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:27 KJV    And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Mat 13:41 KJV    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

*[[Luk 13:29]] KJV* And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

Luk 21:31 KJV    So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

1Co 15:50-52 KJV    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2Ti 4:1 KJV    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Heb 12:26-28 KJV    Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Rev 11:15 KJV    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Blessings

The PuP 

If you wish to imagine the Kingdom of God on earth is set up and operational during the time the Beast has authority, go right ahead. All I am saying is, you will be wrong. 

How can His Kingdom be set up without a king present?

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Those "two times" are actually the same time.

Let me add that to the list, pretrib ends up with two signs in the sky, two last trumpets, two raptures into the clouds, two resurrections, two comings, two days of destruction.

Yet post-trib simply sees one great event and it all fits smoothly.

If you imagine it is smoothly, then it is good in your mind. For millions of pretribbers it is anything but "smooth." One tiny example: you will miss the marriage and supper.  In your theory, the entire church will miss these two events. 

Two signs - check!  the first for the DAY and the second for His coming for Armageddon. 

Two last trumpets - check!  One at the rapture and one at His coming for Armageddon. 

Two raptures - Check!  (yes, one with clouds) yes; the rapture of the church first - then 7 years later the Old Testament saints are resurrected. 

Two resurrections: Check! One for the church, one for the Old Tesament saints. 

Two comings - Check! One FOR the saints, then 7 years later one WITH His saints. 

Two days of destruction - Not that I know.  The day of destruction would be the Day of the Lord. Only ONE of those in the future.

You did quite well!

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

When GOD says it is time, NOT John, like who is telling John what to write. John knows nothing BUT what the holy Spirit reveals. It is all about God`s unveiling of Jesus, it is NOT about John!

As to all those fairy tales, they are earthly pictures, and `this wisdom does not descend from above, but is EARTHLY, SENSUAL, DEMONIC. ` (James 3: 15)

It is `self-seeking,` and brings confusion.

Marilyn.

⁶ And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

It appears like it is the great crowd that says "let us be glad and rejoice and give Honour to Him for the marriage of the Lamb is come.

So John writes that the time has come, but you imagine otherwise. Strange. But I understand, you have to make the Word fit your theory. 

You think Isaiah's trip to heaven or vision of heaven was "self seeking?" How about Paul's? How about Ezekiel's? 

Why should it be any different today? God has never changed! You are going to be very shocked when you find out these stories are all true. You should be able to reason this out: NO ONE on his or her own power can go to hell or to heaven and then return!  In other words, it is GOD doing it. 

How can a trip to heaven and back, bring confusion? It only makes us want to go more.  And it verifies that the bible is true - for those that wonder. And trust me, there are millions that wonder if the bible is true. 

We should be nice to each other: my mansion might be right beside yours!  ?

[ARGOSY]

31 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you imagine it is smoothly, then it is good in your mind. For millions of pretribbers it is anything but "smooth." One tiny example: you will miss the marriage and supper.  In your theory, the entire church will miss these two events. 

Two signs - check!  the first for the DAY and the second for His coming for Armageddon. 

Two last trumpets - check!  One at the rapture and one at His coming for Armageddon. 

Two raptures - Check!  (yes, one with clouds) yes; the rapture of the church first - then 7 years later the Old Testament saints are resurrected. 

Two resurrections: Check! One for the church, one for the Old Tesament saints. 

Two comings - Check! One FOR the saints, then 7 years later one WITH His saints. 

Two days of destruction - Not that I know.  The day of destruction would be the Day of the Lord. Only ONE of those in the future.

You did quite well!

You don't see a potential problem with two of everything? ??? Let me tell you a secret. The way that you know if separate prophecies are referring to the same moment is when a number of events overlap. 

In 2 Thess 1 Paul tells believers to expect their relief from persecution at the second coming, a day of fire and destruction, so add destruction to that list of events occurring twice in your view.