The Restrainer.....Who....When

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

On the contrary scripture DOES say that the rapture and the day of the Lord are the same day:

we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,”destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

You see this as saying it is the same day. I see it as saying the rapture will trigger the DAY. 

Do you see "sudden destruction" happening together with the rapture? It is in the same chapter. 

When I read all the descriptions of the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, NONE seem to describe a rapture. They tell of a dark day of destruction. 

When we bring Revelation into the picture, we see THE DAY starting at the 6th seal with the great earthquake. But we DON'T see the rapture in with that earthquake.  I think we are VERY CLOSE in our belief.

I think when the dead in Christ are raised, that will CAUSE a great earthquake - the same earthquake we see at the 6th seal. But what STARTS  these events? Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming: suddenly the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves - when people are saying peace and safety. Therefore I see the rapture as the trigger for the events - with the DAY and God's wrath coming an instant after we who are alive are caught up. As you know, Paul goes on to say that God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath- showing us again that THE DAY has begun. It is the day of His wrath - same thing as the day of the Lord.

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

*[[1Th 5:3]] KJV* For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Any doctrine is possible,  if you change what the scripture says.   Sudden destruction is what comes suddenly,  not the rapture. 

Jesus said, 

Verse list:    
Luk 21:28-35 KJV    And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

And he spake to them

[Jesus spoke this to them,  his disciples,  the soon to be leaders of the church,  the kingdom of heaven] 

a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, YE SEE and know of YOUR own SELVES that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise YE , when YE  see these things come to pass, know YE that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION  shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Jesus spoke this parable to them AND he interpreted its meaning.   What did he say?   THIS GENERATION [upon whom(the elect)  all these things shall come to pass]  will experience ALL these things and will not perish from whom they are,  the Lord's elect.   On top of that,  Jesus said,  nigh at hand.   I.e., near would be: 

1. Your redemption,  AND

2. The kingdom of God. 

He is not talking about some of those things in the Olivet Discourse,  but he said that our redemption would only be NEAR AT HAND.   That means that the imminent nearness of our redemption and the kingdom,  could not be true until YOU see all of these things having taken place.   If any of them is "yet to be" then imminency is not in the picture.  This is why that no man knows the day.   Your definition of imminency is correct,  but it won't be until all these things that Jesus told his disciples about,  have ALL happened, that there will be nothing that has to happen before his kingdom and our redemption will then be nigh at hand. 

Blessings

The PuP 

All you are showing us is that you don't understand Paul. 

What is the very FIRST  event of the rapture series of events? It will be the dead in Christ flying up out of their graves. And THAT event will come SUDDENLY without any warning at a time when people are saying "peace and safety." 

What is the SECOND even of the rapture series of events? That would be the ground starting to shake as a world wide earthquake begins when God brings together the atoms of the bodies of the dead in Christ. He will form their bodies instantly - but the earthquake will follow.

Paul tells us that at that time, TWO groups of people will get TWO different results: those who are born again (In Christ) will get raptured. Those living in darkness get left behind to face this sudden destruction earthquake. But all this happens in a fraction of a second!

Any doctrine is possible,  if you change what the scripture says.   Sudden destruction is what comes suddenly,  not the rapture.   I have changed nothing. All I have done is explain it.  I guess you don't think the dead in Christ flying up will be sudden. I do. 

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh  Sorry, but Jesus was not talking about Paul's rapture event.

Jesus spoke this to them,  his disciples,  the soon to be leaders of the church  True, but the JEWISH church that died out. He was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age.  Case in point: do those that follow Christ go to synagogues?  Believers to go church buildings!

THIS GENERATION   Many today believe Jesus meaning is the generation that sees these things begin, SUCH AS the fig tree budding, as in Israel becoming a nation.  NONE of those who heard Jesus saw any part of the 70th week in their lifetime, for it is still future to use today. The other "trees" would be the other nations that all seem to be lining up for the end.

Since Jesus was not talking about the Gentile church of today, these words have little meaning for the church. THEY, the Jews will see these events as they come to pass, and when they all do, THEN His coming (as seen in Rev. 19) will be imminent.  The church will be raptured out before the week begins.

You and I disagree on many thing.

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

iamlamad,

Bible scholars, theologians, translators, etc.....they all say that the identity of the Restrainer is never clearly identified.

But, if you know who the Restrainer, then please enlighten us. If he is clearly identified in scripture, it should be fairly easy for you to provide the scripture for us.

Of course I know, for Paul TOLD US. And then after telling us wrote, "and now you know..." 

It is hidden in the word "apostasia." Some imagine this means a falling away from truth. 

Some know Paul's meaning was as a departing of the Bride of Christ as the church is being "taken out of the way."

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I know, for Paul TOLD US. And then after telling us wrote, "and now you know..." 

It is hidden in the word "apostasia." Some imagine this means a falling away from truth. 

Some know Paul's meaning was as a departing of the Bride of Christ as the church is being "taken out of the way."

Hi iamlamad,

There is NO such term as the `Bride of Christ,` in God`s word. Sounds very Catholic to me, `the Brides of Christ`, the nuns.

Do you say to that unsaved man, `Come to Jesus and be His bride?` Very transgender to me.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

There is NO such term as the `Bride of Christ,` in God`s word. Sounds very Catholic to me, `the Brides of Christ`, the nuns.

Do you say to that unsaved man, `Come to Jesus and be His bride?` Very transgender to me.

Marilyn.

It is not Catholic. 

Rev. 19

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Do you expect there to be a marriage without a bride? Just WHO do you think the wife here will be? Is not a "wife" before she is married "a bride?"

What EVER you wish to call those who are in Christ and are caught up to Jesus in the clouds, the entire group will be "taken out of the way," and the restraining force then gone.

Edited March 26, 2019 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It is not Catholic. 

Rev. 19

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Do you expect there to be a marriage without a bride? Just WHO do you think the wife here will be? Is not a "wife" before she is married "a bride?"

What EVER you wish to call those who are in Christ and are caught up to Jesus in the clouds, the entire group will be "taken out of the way," and the restraining force then gone.

Hi iamlamad,

God`s word tell us that the wife is Israel, and God is her husband (master). (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) When they rebelled God divorced them, (Jer. 3: 8 & Is. 50: 1) However God has `betrothed them to Himself for ever, (Hosea 2: 19 & 20) and will again receive them. That connecting is the symbolic marriage feast, which is ON the earth, as a man came into the wedding feast and did not have on a wedding garment. He obviously couldn`t get into heaven without salvation (robes), the feast is ON the earth. (Matt. 22: 11 - 13)

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, Da Puppers said:

It is not the rapture  [as you claim]  that Paul says will come suddenly upon those who say Peace and safety, 

*[[1Th 5:3]] KJV* For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Your denial of what Paul said has more evidence against you.   Paul's exhortation to the Thessalonians ends in almost identical fashion to what Jesus says in Luke.   Watch and be sober, 

*[[1Th 5:6]] THEREFORE let US not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be SOBER.

The "Therefore" tells us that what he just said applies to them.   And so,  Jesus said,  

Verse list:    
Luk 21:34-36 KJV    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with SURFEITING, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Here is what the rarely used word surfeiting means

h1. G2897

Original: *κραιπάλη*

Transliteration: *kraipalē*

Phonetic: *krahee-pal'-ay*

*Thayer Definition*:

# the giddiness and headache caused by drinking wine to excess

Origin: probably from the same as [[d 726]]

TDNT entry: None

Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine

*Strong's Definition*: Probably from the same as [[G726]]; properly a _headache_ (as a _seizure_ of pain) from drunkenness, that is, (by implication) a _debauch_ (by analogy a _glut_): - surfeiting.

Jesus said,  'watch and don't be drunk '

Paul said,  "watch and be sober".

Essentially,  they said the same thing.   Paul called it the day of the Lord.   Jesus called it the snare that shall try all then that dwell on the earth,  saying that no man knows that day or hour. Paul called it sudden (G160, aiphnidios) destruction.   Jesus said that day would come unawares (G160, aiphnidios).  Surely,  you can see that they are referring to the same day...a day of destruction! 

*[[1Th 5:4]] KJV* But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Jesus's command to watch is because you do not know the day or hour. 

The parable of the fig tree is found in 3 gospels and Luke makes it clear that it was spoken (and interpreted) for them and to them. 

Verse list:    
Luk 21:28-31 KJV    And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

AND HE  SPAKE TO THEM

a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Mat 24:32-36 KJV    Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mar 13:28-33 KJV    Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Our redemption,  the judgment of the righteous, and the kingdom,  says Luke in clear fashion, will only be nigh,  when all these things "come upon this generation", but will come at the appearance of Jesus and his kingdom, 

*[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I just don't get it.   You understand that the kingdom of God shall come in the middle of the week at the 7th trumpet,  but can't grasp that Jesus (and Paul)  speak of all these events must happen as part of the day of the Lord,  BEFORE our redemption and his kingdom.  Paul and Jesus are in agreement in saying that the DOTL comes like a thief,  BEFORE our redemption and his kingdom. 

*[[1Th 5:1]] KJV* But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you...

*[[1Th 5:4]] KJV* But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Paul didn't,  and didn't have to tell them these things, because they already knew them from the gospel records.  You need to let the scriptures speak for themselves.   You, as a member of his church,  the kingdom of heaven should know these things.  As the parable of the 10 virgins exhorts us to watch,  you have  put yourself at risk to be one of those found not watching.   Prayerfully consider what I habe presented unto you. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Are you saying you disagree with my sequence of events? Yes, OF COURSE the destruction comes "suddenly," but WHY? Because all the events of the rapture will happen within a very small period of time. 

Are you saying that the dead in Christ rising will NOT be sudden? Perhaps you imagine there will be a warning? Or perhaps you think it will take God some period of time to get all the dead in Christ risen?  If you expect some kind of sign before the dead in Christ rise, WHAT?  We are IN a period when people are saying "peace and safety." It is the current THEME of the UN.  If that is a sign, it is CURRENT.

When Paul wrote, "then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape," do you not understand that AT THE SAME MOMENT IN TIME, those who are IN CHRIST get raptured? 

Look, there is coming a moment in time with those alive and IN CHRIST will be raptured out - what Paul is saying is that at that same moment in time, others will be left behind. And what will those left behind be facing?  "Sudden destruction." Paul did not have to print it out for those IN CHRIST; it is understood that those raptured will be raptured just as suddenly as those left behind. 

If you don't believe this, then you MUST believe the opposite - that it will take God some amount of time to get the dead raised, then MORE time to get those alive in in Christ raised. I don't believe that. Paul wrote, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." Is that not sudden enough for you? 

Your denial of what Paul said has more evidence against you.   I have not denied anything of scripture.  I may deny your theories. OF COURSE the sudden destruction comes suddenly! But so does those alive get caught up suddenly. What you have not seen is that it is the SAME sudden moment in time. 

Maybe you see His two more comings as one. I see TWO more comings. And what you say is true of both comings. For those in Christ, we must be ready for His coming to catch us up an any time.  Further, we must be EXPECTING Him. 

But for the Jews during the 70th week, they too must be watching for His coming. Most will not "escape" but will be left behind at the rapture. They are going to go through the fire, for sure. But some will escape the Beast and will see Jesus - with the nail holes in His hands and His side pierced. WE don't know the day nor hour of the rapture, and THEY will not do the day nor hour of His coming to Armageddon. 

I just don't get it.   You understand that the kingdom of God shall come in the middle of the week at the 7th trumpet  I did not make this up: I promise. Go and read it for yourself! It is at the 7th trumpet that the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. 

can't grasp that Jesus (and Paul)  speak of all these events must happen as part of the day of the Lord,  BEFORE our redemption and his kingdom.  It's simple: I believe in the pretrib rapture - but you don't.  I believe He will come FIRST FOR His saints, then come 7 years later WITH His saints.

Paul and Jesus are in agreement in saying that the DOTL comes like a thief,  BEFORE our redemption and his kingdom.   That is only in your thinking, not in scripture.  Yes, the DAY comes as a thief, because HE comes (pretrib) as a thief - when no one knows - to call up the church in the rapture. THEN the Day will come. So the DAY comes because HE comes - only the rapture comes first, before wrath.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  BECAUSE we are in the light, WE get raptured while THEY get sudden destruction. It will be a surprise, for no one knows exactly WHEN, but we will not be overtaken, we will be caught up.

As usual, we read these scriptures differently

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

God`s word tell us that the wife is Israel, and God is her husband (master). (Isa. 54: 5 & 6) When they rebelled God divorced them, (Jer. 3: 8 & Is. 50: 1) However God has `betrothed them to Himself for ever, (Hosea 2: 19 & 20) and will again receive them. That connecting is the symbolic marriage feast, which is ON the earth, as a man came into the wedding feast and did not have on a wedding garment. He obviously couldn`t get into heaven without salvation (robes), the feast is ON the earth. (Matt. 22: 11 - 13)

Marilyn.

Again I must disagree! WHERE IS JOHN AND WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE when John tells them it is TIME for the marriage and the supper? Of course, IN HEAVEN. It is myth to imagine it will take place on earth. Jesus does not descend until AFTER the marriage and supper.  It was a PARABLE. Of course in a parable anything can happen. 

[Marilyn C]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Again I must disagree! WHERE IS JOHN AND WHERE ARE THE PEOPLE when John tells them it is TIME for the marriage and the supper? Of course, IN HEAVEN. It is myth to imagine it will take place on earth. Jesus does not descend until AFTER the marriage and supper.  It was a PARABLE. Of course in a parable anything can happen. 

Hi iamlamad,

It is the Holy Spirit telling (through John) when the marriage supper is prepared.

`the marriage of the Lamb, has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.` (Rev. 19: 7 & 8)

Let`s look closely to what God is saying -

1.L, capital L, for Lamb, refers to Israel and their sacrifices, the Body of Christ NEVER had sacrifices of animals.

2.His wife, Israel is called the wife, but the Body of Christ is the NEW MAN.

3.`righteous acts of the saints` are their clothing, this refers to the good works Jesus told Israel they must do, (Matt. 5: 16) and that their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. (Matt. 5: 20) The Body of Christ on the other hand is ONLY righteous because of Christ for He is our righteousness, not our good works, or righteous acts. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

All points to ISRAEL as the wife.

NOTE: `For in the resurrection they NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, but are like the angels in heaven.` (Matt. 22: 30)

There is NO marriage in heaven.

Marilyn.

 

[ARGOSY]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You see this as saying it is the same day. I see it as saying the rapture will trigger the DAY. 

Do you see "sudden destruction" happening together with the rapture? It is in the same chapter. 

 

The chapter breaks were inserted hundreds of years later, and did not exist in the original letter.  

Yes sudden destruction does occur when the lamb is seen:

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Note that the second coming is a day of relief for believers (Paul was including himself so this is NOT tribulation saints). It is ALSO a day of DESTRUCTION:

2 thess 1 He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you ⁷ and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. ⁸ He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might ¹⁰ on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people

Let the scriptures speak, Paul as a living believer was expecting to participate in a day of relief, at the revealing of Jesus, a day of fire and destruction.

Edited March 26, 2019 by ARGOSY