The Restrainer.....Who....When

[ARGOSY]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi ARGOSY,

Easy words to say, but harder to prove. Now the word Day, Gk, `hemera,` means a 24 hour day AS WELL AS a period of time. We know that when the heavens are opened and the Lord and His angelic army comes forth in power and great glory, that will be a specific day. (Rev. 19: 11 - 14,  Matt. 25: 31) However the period of time before that at the beginning of the tribulation right through to the New heavens and new earth is also called the Day of the Lord. ( 2 Peter 3: 10)

As to the Body of Christ being gathered together, that is called the Day of Christ. (Phil. 1: 6, 2: 26,  1 Cor. 1: 8, 2 Cor. 1: 14) That is separate from the term Day of the Lord, (God Almighty bringing judgment,  Rev. 15: 3) 

You need to study those terms a bit more bro, to understand what & when God is doing something. 

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

2 Peter 3:10 is a specific day. Why do you claim it is not?  The bible language seems to be end-of-the-world, but the second coming is a day of fire and destruction in which rocks and sand are destroyed (like in an war), and the land is laid bare (the earthquake destroys all the buildings, and the mountains are removed, so sure the land will be laid bare).  This does not PROVE any long time frames for the day of the Lord. 

You need to understand that the word ge/earth means "land",  Greek had no word for planets back then. The descriptions of the Messianic Age all show that the land and atmosphere will be completely new at both the second coming and 1000 years later. There is no reason to restrict the phrase "new land" to the Rev 20 event. And therefore there is no reason to spread the DOTL across the millenium just because new land is also mentioned in second coming context.

You correctly quote verses about being kept blameless for the day of Christ, but this SAME EXPECTATION of being kept blameless is applied to the SECOND COMING. It is the same day:

 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The second coming is a day of destruction as shown by 2 thess 1 in which the living Paul expects to get his relief from persecution on the DESTRUCTIVE DAY OF FIRE:

He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you ⁷ and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. ⁸ He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might ¹⁰ on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you

This is perfectly consistent with the 3 times a gathering of the saints is mentioned, the Olivet Discourse mentions a gathering on a day of destruction.

1 Corinthians 15 mentions a gathering when Jesus comes, at the resurrection. 

2 Thess 4/5 mentions a gathering on the DOTL a day of wrath (if the chapter breaks don't confuse you)

If you start mixing all these events up you get two resurrections, two comings, two days of destruction, two gatherings, two last trumpets and really it all fits better with just one. 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

There's nary a word about the rapture or that it precedes the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5.  You are interjecting a pretrib bias into the text.   Your view demands that the subjects of Paul's & Jesus's exhortation to "watch and be sober" are different.   What is Paul telling the Thessalonians to be watching for?   What was Jesus telling  his apostles to be watching for?   If the rapture is an event that comes suddenly and unawares (G160,aphnidios), it is not something that one can be looking for because it is gong to happen without warning.   1 Thess 4 is not one of those events because Paul said that he had no need to write about the times and seasons,  i.e., thee order of events.  To say  that he is presenting them in order,  whether you believe them to be or not is to make an implication about things that Paul said (times & seasons) that is just that... only an implied belief.   You must show from somewhere else that the rapture precedes the DOTL What is he telling them to watch for and what is he telling you to watch for?  [All of these questions are because you fail to recognize that he was speaking the parable of the fig tree to them].

*[[Luk 21:29]] KJV* AND HE SPAKE TO THEM  a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Blessings

The PuP 

You can mix up Paul's words with Jesus' words all you want - but that will not make them about the same event. Paul was writing to Gentiles about the future of the Gentile church, while Jesus was talking about the Jews and the end of their age.  The end of their age is simply NOT the end of our age. 

The Jews have John's book. When the 70th week comes, they can follow it by John's book - so they will know where there are in the week. The church won't be here to follow any of it. Paul's rapture is clearly before the week begins. There is nothing for the church to look for as far as signs - except in a very general way. But we CAN watch the fig tree. Since the rapture will come just before the 70th week, if we watch Israel, we can tell we are close. Those that saw Israel become a nation are all old people now and will soon be gone. That tells us that the time for the rapture is near. I don't know about you, but I am going to stay ready.

By the way, Paul did not "imply" that God will set no appointments with His wrath - he made it very clear. That means the rapture before the 6th seal. Since we are already at the 5th seal, that does not tell us much - except one day the 6th seal will be opened and before that we will be gone.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Hi Marilyn,

2 Peter 3:10 is a specific day. Why do you claim it is not?  The bible language seems to be end-of-the-world, but the second coming is a day of fire and destruction in which rocks and sand are destroyed (like in an war), and the land is laid bare (the earthquake destroys all the buildings, and the mountains are removed, so sure the land will be laid bare).  This does not PROVE any long time frames for the day of the Lord. 

You need to understand that the word ge/earth means "land",  Greek had no word for planets back then. The descriptions of the Messianic Age all show that the land and atmosphere will be completely new at both the second coming and 1000 years later. There is no reason to restrict the phrase "new land" to the Rev 20 event. And therefore there is no reason to spread the DOTL across the millenium just because new land is also mentioned in second coming context.

You correctly quote verses about being kept blameless for the day of Christ, but this SAME EXPECTATION of being kept blameless is applied to the SECOND COMING. It is the same day:

 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The second coming is a day of destruction as shown by 2 thess 1 in which the living Paul expects to get his relief from persecution on the DESTRUCTIVE DAY OF FIRE:

He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you ⁷ and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. ⁸ He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. ⁹ They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might ¹⁰ on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you

This is perfectly consistent with the 3 times a gathering of the saints is mentioned, the Olivet Discourse mentions a gathering on a day of destruction.

1 Corinthians 15 mentions a gathering when Jesus comes, at the resurrection. 

2 Thess 4/5 mentions a gathering on the DOTL a day of wrath (if the chapter breaks don't confuse you)

If you start mixing all these events up you get two resurrections, two comings, two days of destruction, two gatherings, two last trumpets and really it all fits better with just one. 

I doubt this a lot.  You missed the TWO times the signs in the sun and moon will be seen: first as the sign of the DAY, and again 7 years later as a sign of His coming.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

It is the Holy Spirit telling (through John) when the marriage supper is prepared.

`the marriage of the Lamb, has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.` (Rev. 19: 7 & ?

Let`s look closely to what God is saying -

1.L, capital L, for Lamb, refers to Israel and their sacrifices, the Body of Christ NEVER had sacrifices of animals.

2.His wife, Israel is called the wife, but the Body of Christ is the NEW MAN.

3.`righteous acts of the saints` are their clothing, this refers to the good works Jesus told Israel they must do, (Matt. 5: 16) and that their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. (Matt. 5: 20) The Body of Christ on the other hand is ONLY righteous because of Christ for He is our righteousness, not our good works, or righteous acts. (1 Cor. 1: 30)

All points to ISRAEL as the wife.

NOTE: `For in the resurrection they NEITHER MARRY NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, but are like the angels in heaven.` (Matt. 22: 30)

There is NO marriage in heaven.

Marilyn.

Here we go again: when John  says it is time, then IT IS TIME - right then, not later! 

I guess you have  very little faith in personal testimonies, but several people who have been in heaven and returned to talk about it, tell us that the tables are all set, along the river of life as far as the eye can see: each chair with a name on it! Some have been told it is ALL READY; just waiting on the saints to arrive. Since what they say agrees with John, I believe them. It was not always so: a few years ago they were seeing angels setting the tables - it was NOT all finished then. Then another brother testified that the mansions are all done, again just waiting for the saints to arrive. Of course you are free to believe as you will. I am going to believer John.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

There's nary a word about the rapture or that it precedes the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 5.  You are interjecting a pretrib bias into the text.   Your view demands that the subjects of Paul's & Jesus's exhortation to "watch and be sober" are different.   What is Paul telling the Thessalonians to be watching for?   What was Jesus telling  his apostles to be watching for?   If the rapture is an event that comes suddenly and unawares (G160,aphnidios), it is not something that one can be looking for because it is gong to happen without warning.   1 Thess 4 is not one of those events because Paul said that he had no need to write about the times and seasons,  i.e., thee order of events.  To say  that he is presenting them in order,  whether you believe them to be or not is to make an implication about things that Paul said (times & seasons) that is just that... only an implied belief.   You must show from somewhere else that the rapture precedes the DOTL What is he telling them to watch for and what is he telling you to watch for?  [All of these questions are because you fail to recognize that he was speaking the parable of the fig tree to them].

*[[Luk 21:29]] KJV* AND HE SPAKE TO THEM  a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Blessings

The PuP 

Wake up, PUP! The rapture verses are in chapter 4. But you knew that. As you or  someone said, Paul did not add the chapter breaks. So chapter 5 is just Paul giving us more facts on the rapture. 

Did you not notice?

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

¹¹ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

Where John wrote, to obtain salvation - notice it is opposed to wrath. How will people get His wrath? By getting left behind. In other words, God has not appointed us to wrath, but to take us out (obtain salvation) BEFORE His wrath. 

Notice "we should live together with Him." HOW, PuP, HOW will we "live together with Him?" Of course by way of the rapture.  This is saying the same thing as "so shall we ever be with the Lord," but using different words. 

Notice the comfort phrase here, just as in chapter 4.

In other words, PuP, Paul is STILL TALKING about the rapture.

Edited March 26, 2019 by iamlamad

[ARGOSY]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I doubt this a lot.  You missed the TWO times the signs in the sun and moon will be seen: first as the sign of the DAY, and again 7 years later as a sign of His coming.

I didn't see your exegesis on the verses that contradict your position. Instead you smoothly changed the topic.

[iamlamad]

Just now, ARGOSY said:

I didn't see your exegesis on the verses that contradict your position. Instead you smoothly changed the topic.

I get tired going over these things again and again. I doubt you would believe me anyway. 

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.   So WHICH COMING is this? I would guess His pretrib coming.  Others may disagree.

 

He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you ⁷ and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

So WHICH COMING is this? I would guess His coming for the Battle of Armageddon.  Others may disagree. Truthfully, it is hard to prove anything with either of these verses, but people try. 

On the other hand, 1 thes. 4 is a very easy chapter to understand, yet there are people that deny any rapture any time. 

2 Thes. 2 talks about a gathering, but many people assume the "gathering" in the passage is the Day of the Lord, not the Apostasia. I think they are mistaken. 

This is perfectly consistent with the 3 times a gathering of the saints is mentioned  But the gathering in 2 Thes. 2 does not fit. The gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from the WRONG PLACE to be Paul's gathering.  Do you see why "I said I don't this?" We read these passages differently. 

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here we go again: when John  says it is time, then IT IS TIME - right then, not later! 

I guess you have  very little faith in personal testimonies, but several people who have been in heaven and returned to talk about it, tell us that the tables are all set, along the river of life as far as the eye can see: each chair with a name on it! Some have been told it is ALL READY; just waiting on the saints to arrive. Since what they say agrees with John, I believe them. It was not always so: a few years ago they were seeing angels setting the tables - it was NOT all finished then. Then another brother testified that the mansions are all done, again just waiting for the saints to arrive. Of course you are free to believe as you will. I am going to believer John.

Hi iamlamad,

When GOD says it is time, NOT John, like who is telling John what to write. John knows nothing BUT what the holy Spirit reveals. It is all about God`s unveiling of Jesus, it is NOT about John!

As to all those fairy tales, they are earthly pictures, and `this wisdom does not descend from above, but is EARTHLY, SENSUAL, DEMONIC. ` (James 3: 15)

It is `self-seeking,` and brings confusion.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Hi Marilyn,

2 Peter 3:10 is a specific day.

 

 

Hi ARGOSY,

`But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the HEAVENS WILL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the ELEMENTS WILL MELT WITH FERVENT  HEAT; both the EARTH AND THE WORKS that are in it WILL BE BURNED UP. `(2 Peter 3: 10)

Final end of the earth and heavens.

Marilyn.

[ARGOSY]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I doubt this a lot.  You missed the TWO times the signs in the sun and moon will be seen: first as the sign of the DAY, and again 7 years later as a sign of His coming.

Those "two times" are actually the same time.

Let me add that to the list, pretrib ends up with two signs in the sky, two last trumpets, two raptures into the clouds, two resurrections, two comings, two days of destruction.

Yet post-trib simply sees one great event and it all fits smoothly.