Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated Substantially :P

[Patrick Miron]

16 hours ago, DignifiedResponse said:

Transubstantiation Unsubstantiated Substantially

Texts provided that are normally cited:

John 6:1-71 (entire context given, so no one can say I have taken anything out of context)

Joh 6:1  After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
Joh 6:2  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
Joh 6:3  And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
Joh 6:4  And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 6:5  When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
Joh 6:6  And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
Joh 6:7  Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
Joh 6:8  One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
Joh 6:9  There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
Joh 6:10  And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
Joh 6:11  And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
Joh 6:12  When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
Joh 6:13  Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
Joh 6:14  Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Joh 6:15  When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Joh 6:16  And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
Joh 6:17  And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
Joh 6:18  And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
Joh 6:19  So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
Joh 6:20  But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
Joh 6:21  Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
Joh 6:22  The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
Joh 6:23  (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
Joh 6:24  When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
Joh 6:25  And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Joh 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Joh 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath Joh 6:28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:30  They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31  Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34  Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36  But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41  The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42  And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48  I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49  Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55  For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56  He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57  As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58  This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59  These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60  Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61  When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64  But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71  He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Matthew 26:17-35 (whole context given):

Mat 26:17  Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18  And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19  And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20  Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21  And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mat 26:22  And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23  And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25  Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Mat 26:30  And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Mat 26:31  Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mat 26:32  But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mat 26:33  Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
Mat 26:34  Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mat 26:35  Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Mark 14:12-31 (whole context given):

Mar 14:12  And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mar 14:13  And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Mar 14:14  And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar 14:15  And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
Mar 14:16  And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Mar 14:17  And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18  And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Mar 14:19  And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
Mar 14:20  And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
Mar 14:21  The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Mar 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23  And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24  And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mar 14:25  Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Mar 14:26  And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Mar 14:27  And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
Mar 14:28  But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
Mar 14:29  But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
Mar 14:30  And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mar 14:31  But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

Luke 22:7-39 (whole context given):

Luk 22:7  Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk 22:8  And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Luk 22:9  And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
Luk 22:10  And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
Luk 22:11  And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Luk 22:12  And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
Luk 22:13  And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Luk 22:14  And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15  And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16  For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Luk 22:21  But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22  And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
Luk 22:23  And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
Luk 22:24  And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25  And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Luk 22:28  Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luk 22:29  And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luk 22:31  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32  But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Luk 22:33  And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
Luk 22:34  And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
Scripture Must Be Fulfilled in Jesus
Luk 22:35  And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
Luk 22:36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37  For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38  And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Luk 22:39  And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

John 13:1-38 (whole context given):

Joh 13:1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Joh 13:2  And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
Joh 13:3  Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Joh 13:4  He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5  After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6  Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7  Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8  Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9  Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10  Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11  For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Joh 13:12  So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17  If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19  Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Joh 13:20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Joh 13:21  When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Joh 13:22  Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
Joh 13:23  Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Joh 13:24  Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
Joh 13:25  He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Joh 13:26  Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Joh 13:28  Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
Joh 13:29  For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
Joh 13:30  He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Joh 13:31  Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
Joh 13:32  If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Joh 13:33  Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 13:36  Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
Joh 13:37  Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
Joh 13:38  Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 (whole context given):

1Co 5:6  Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8  Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Corinthians 10:1-22 (whole context given):

1Co 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
1Co 10:15  I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
1Co 10:16  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Co 10:17  For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1Co 10:18  Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
1Co 10:19  What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1Co 10:20  But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22  Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

1 Corinthians 11:17-34 (whole context given):

1Co 11:17  Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18  For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Co 11:20  When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21  For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:22  What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1Co 11:23  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26  For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27  Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Co 11:33  Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1Co 11:34  And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

Hebrews 11:23-29 (whole context given):

Heb 11:23  By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Heb 11:27  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29  By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Passover:

Exodus 12:1-51 (whole context given):

Exo 12:1  And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
Exo 12:2  This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
Exo 12:3  Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
Exo 12:4  And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
Exo 12:5  Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6  And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exo 12:7  And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Exo 12:8  And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9  Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Exo 12:10  And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
Exo 12:11  And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
Exo 12:12  For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Exo 12:13  And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Exo 12:14  And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exo 12:15  Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Exo 12:16  And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
Exo 12:17  And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exo 12:18  In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
Exo 12:19  Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
Exo 12:20  Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.
Exo 12:21  Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
Exo 12:22  And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
Exo 12:23  For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
Exo 12:24  And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
Exo 12:25  And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
Exo 12:26  And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exo 12:27  That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.
Exo 12:28  And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
Exo 12:29  And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
Exo 12:30  And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
Exo 12:31  And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
Exo 12:32  Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.
Exo 12:33  And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
Exo 12:34  And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
Exo 12:35  And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
Exo 12:36  And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.
Exo 12:37  And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
Exo 12:38  And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Exo 12:39  And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.
Exo 12:40  Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
Exo 12:41  And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
Exo 12:42  It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
Exo 12:43  And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
Exo 12:44  But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
Exo 12:45  A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
Exo 12:46  In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
Exo 12:47  All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
Exo 12:48  And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49  One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exo 12:50  Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
Exo 12:51  And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.

Passover:

Leviticus 23:4-8 (whole context given):

Lev 23:4  These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5  In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6  And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7  In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8  But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

These are the primary texts.

Now, let's begin with a few official definitions from Roman Catholicism, on what 'transubstantiation', so that none may argue that the correct definition was not given.

 

FROM FATHER JOHN A. HARDON'S CATHOLIC DICTIONARY

TRANSUBSTANTIATION. The complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood by a validly ordained priest during the consecration at Mass, so that only the accidents of bread and wine remain. While the faith behind the term was already believed in apostolic times, the term itself was a later development. With the Eastern Fathers before the sixth century, the favored expression was meta-ousiosis "change of being"; the Latin tradition coined the word transubstantiatio, "change of substance," which was incorporated into the creed of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The Council of Trent, in defining the "wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and the whole substance of the wine into the blood" of Christ, added "which conversion the Catholic Church calls transubstantiation" (Denzinger 1652). After transubstantiation, the accidents of bread and wine do not inhere in any subject or substance whatever. Yet they are not make-believe; they are sustained in existence by divine power. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change + substantia, substance: transubstantiatio, change of substance.)

May the Holy Spirit lead this discussion

Patrick

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, Patrick Miron said:

May the Holy Spirit lead this discussion

Patrick

Good to see you here Patrick. 

[Patrick Miron]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Good to see you here Patrick. 

Good to be HERE, thanks,

Patricl

[Patrick Miron]

9 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

If the only problem with the roman catholic church was transubstantiation , there would not be nearly so many shattered and broken lives .

Transubstantiation is the least of their problems

If what they are saying about the highest levels within it is true , they are truly a coven of the damned ,  apostles of hell .

Cute:☺️

If you can't win the debate CHANGE the topic.

But to be fair; your topic is well worth discussing; START a new THREAD and let me know when you do and we can discuss it too.

But Transubstantiation {a more recent theological term}  has been around for some 2,000 years and the LAST Supper with Jesus Himself.

It references Christ ongoing REAL {as in REALLY!!!!!} Divine Presence in Catholic Holy Communion; the very foundation of Catholicism and therefore by proxy; Protestantism which flows through the Catholic Church. It is "the Sum and the Summit" of our Catholic Faith as it IS Jesus Himself in Person and the most Profound reason everyone ought to WANT  to be  an Informed and fully practicing Catholics {yea; there are still a slew of us around}

So lets discuss this ISSUE HERE and your valid issue when you begin a new THREAD.

Dear Jesus BLESS Us, we need you,

Patrick

 

 

[Patrick Miron]

15 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

That was.... a lot of substance! O.o

COUNT on it?

 

Its REALLY Jesus in Person!

And THAT is "ALOT!" 

Blessings,

Patrick

[Fidei Defensor]

22 minutes ago, Patrick Miron said:

Good to be HERE, thanks,

Patricl

Your most welcome brother.

see you around the forums.  

[Unfailing Presence]

1 hour ago, Patrick Miron said:

Cute:☺️

If you can't win the debate CHANGE the topic.

But to be fair; your topic is well worth discussing; START a new THREAD and let me know when you do and we can discuss it too.

But Transubstantiation {a more recent theological term}  has been around for some 2,000 years and the LAST Supper with Jesus Himself.

It references Christ ongoing REAL {as in REALLY!!!!!} Divine Presence in Catholic Holy Communion; the very foundation of Catholicism and therefore by proxy; Protestantism which flows through the Catholic Church. It is "the Sum and the Summit" of our Catholic Faith as it IS Jesus Himself in Person and the most Profound reason everyone ought to WANT  to be  an Informed and fully practicing Catholics {yea; there are still a slew of us around}

So lets discuss this ISSUE HERE and your valid issue when you begin a new THREAD.

Dear Jesus BLESS Us, we need you,

Patrick

 

 

All things come from God , and His supply is inexhaustible  .

I really do not understand the point of a    " debate" ?

What is to be satisfied   ?

What is at stake ? 

What could be lost ? 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, Patrick Miron said:

Cute:☺️

If you can't win the debate CHANGE the topic.

But to be fair; your topic is well worth discussing; START a new THREAD and let me know when you do and we can discuss it too.

But Transubstantiation {a more recent theological term}  has been around for some 2,000 years and the LAST Supper with Jesus Himself.

It references Christ ongoing REAL {as in REALLY!!!!!} Divine Presence in Catholic Holy Communion; the very foundation of Catholicism and therefore by proxy; Protestantism which flows through the Catholic Church. It is "the Sum and the Summit" of our Catholic Faith as it IS Jesus Himself in Person and the most Profound reason everyone ought to WANT  to be  an Informed and fully practicing Catholics {yea; there are still a slew of us around}

So lets discuss this ISSUE HERE and your valid issue when you begin a new THREAD.

Dear Jesus BLESS Us, we need you,

Patrick

 

 

Why not discuss it here? Do you believe in Transubstantiation? If so, how does it work? I am not being sarcastic or demeaning, I would love to fully understand the Catholic view of the Lord’s Supper or Eucharist. I’ve combed the Catholic Catechism and it lays out the doctrine, but what of the experience? What is a Catholic sense, feel, and what is suppose to happen spiritually? 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[Michael37]

On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 11:28 AM, Patrick Miron said:

But Transubstantiation {a more recent theological term}  has been around for some 2,000 years and the LAST Supper with Jesus Himself.

It references Christ ongoing REAL {as in REALLY!!!!!} Divine Presence in Catholic Holy Communion; the very foundation of Catholicism and therefore by proxy; Protestantism which flows through the Catholic Church. It is "the Sum and the Summit" of our Catholic Faith as it IS Jesus Himself in Person and the most Profound reason everyone ought to WANT  to be  an Informed and fully practicing Catholics {yea; there are still a slew of us around}

Hi Patrick, 

How do you interpret these two verses. Are they both metaphorical, or is only one metaphorical and the other literal?

Isa 64:8
(8)  But now, O LORD, you are our father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of your hand.
Mat 26:26-29
(26)  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
(27)  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
(28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(29)  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Yours truly in Christ, Michael.

[Patrick Miron]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Patrick, 

How do you interpret these two verses. Are they both metaphorical, or is only one metaphorical and the other literal?

Isa 64:8
(8)  But now, O LORD, you are our father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of your hand.
Mat 26:26-29
(26)  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
(27)  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
(28)  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(29)  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Yours truly in Christ, Michael.

Isaiah is Metaphorical

Mt. 26:26-27

Mk. 14: 22-24

Lk. 22: 19-20

Jn. 6: 47-57, 68-70 {Douay Bible}

Paul 1st Cor. 11:23-30

ALL of which are Literal

BUT stay tuned I'm working on a detailed response that I'll post ASAP

God Bless you,

Patrick