Salvation and Sin

[JohnKing67]

45 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Also, you seem to be confusing "permissible" with "unavoidable". If you claim sinlessness you are 1) according to 1 John 1 a liar, no offense meant here and 2) have a much dimmer view on sin than the rest of us. Sin is missing the mark or imperfection. How many times a day are you imperfect? When I've preached publicly for two hours and felt tired, and God prompted me to rely on Him for strength to preach more, but I didn't, THAT was SIN.

EVERYONE I know with the false doctrine of sinless perfectionism thinks "big things only" are sin. Sin put Christ on the cross, so get a good understanding of what sin is before you claim sinlessness or what seems hypocritical to me, that unlike the rest of us, you are perfect daily and only very rarely need to repent of sin.

If you have a few minutes would you mind reading:

     https://www.thethirdangelsmessage.com/if-we-say-we-have-no-sin-the-misinterpretation

or if you'd rather I can cut and paste it here, but it might be a bit long.

I'm just curious to know what you think about it.

Edited September 25, 2018 by JohnKing67

[Billiards Ball]

42 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

If you have a few minutes would you mind reading:

     https://www.thethirdangelsmessage.com/if-we-say-we-have-no-sin-the-misinterpretation

or if you'd rather I can cut and paste it here, but it might be a bit long.

I'm just curious to know what you think about it.

I read the post, thanks.

The confusion is which "sin" is being spoken about in 1 John. It's "big sin, a sinful lifestyle". Jesus told a woman "don't commit adultery", not "be now perfect and sinless, starting today". All other persons would recognize perfect humans who aren't Jesus Christ--because they don't exist. NO ONE would be saved except Christ.

John is clear to me--Christians cannot abide in excessive, willful sin, they will be disciplined (Hebrews 12) or even "taken home early," dead, I know some who died because they wouldn't fight sin.

What is sin? In the Greek, "missing the mark," like an arrow that misses its target. NO ONE would be saved if they had to be sinless, no one except Jesus, who became our sin to save us.

I'm Jewish, I know what it means to try to be saved by righteous works apart from Jesus. The good news is not: "You were trying really hard to be perfect, so you would be an eligible citizen for utopia, so here's good news, Jesus died and rose, so you can trust Him and now, try really really really hard to never sin, but if you do, pray and repent, and God has to let you into Heaven."

The good news is "You were trying really hard to be perfect, so you would be an eligible citizen for utopia, so here's good news, Jesus died and rose, trust what He did for you on the cross for eternal life."

People will be transformed to be sinless without the desire to sin or the ability to give into the temptation to sin, after the Rapture. This is the blessed hope.

[JohnKing67]

7 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

The confusion is which "sin" is being spoken about in 1 John.

Doesn't "sin" mean all sin?  Why the confusion?

[JohnKing67]

26 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

"Jesus died and rose, trust what He did for you on the cross for eternal life." 

 

Agreed, and I am trusting in Jesus to get me saved, but if the command of God is to "sin not", I will need his righteousness (not mine) to do it.

Edited September 25, 2018 by JohnKing67

[Archangel Thyos]

7 hours ago, JohnKing67 said:

 I agree.  I'm amazed at how many Christians believe sin is permissible as long as you can say you're saved.

I certainly hope I don't go to heaven filled with people who need a social reeducation program.

[Billiards Ball]

1 hour ago, JohnKing67 said:

Doesn't "sin" mean all sin?  Why the confusion?

It's not confusing to tens of millions of born agains, but you must learn a rule of Bible interpretation, to not rush to interpret any vague words. For example, Paul says in Acts, "unless you leave this ship you cannot be saved [from drowning in the sea]." Saved doesn't always mean the same exact thing in the English Bible.

If you feel instead that sin means "all sin" and not "certain sins which can wreck your Christian life", you have a big problem in 1 John and elsewhere, that ONLY sinless people are saved, which is NOT people who sin at times and repent. You are going to Hell when you die, because you sometimes, however rarely, sin, unless the vast, overwhelming majority of believers who've ever lived are correct in their interpretation. I have only a year of Greek at university, but I'm saying the NT does not say only sinless people are saved, it says redeemed saints who sometimes sin are saved.

Repeating, sinless perfectionism tends to say "getting drunk is a sin, so is masturbation, but if I look at someone and have an unrighteous thought, but catch it before I masturbate, I haven't sinned..." and similar Pharisaic hoops to jump through. The Bible says all humans sin, often.

[Billiards Ball]

52 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

Agreed, and I am trusting in Jesus to get me saved, but if the command of God is to "sin not", I will need his righteousness (not mine) to do it.

The command of God IS to sin not, in the Law, which Law shows that as the Law comes alive in our hearts, people sin. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7.

You do have to be sinless, perfect and without sin to be saved. You seem to think this is due to your effort, yet we both know you did many sins before you trusted Jesus Christ for salvation. How did THOSE sins go away, the ones you did before your conversion? Please don't tell me because you "repented". It's because Christ died 2,000 years ago for sins we committed in the 1980s, 1990s... If I believe your doctrine, a few thousand people in this country MIGHT be saved, not millions.

I think you need to be sure you are in a Bible-believing church. If your church teaches sinless perfectionism, they are cultish.

I'm going to repeat myself carefully again, for your sake, get off of your works and how pure and wonderful you are (because you are starting to sound like the people I know who are not believers, and say they're too good to need Jesus, and should go to Heaven on their merits) and get on board with how our wonderful Messiah paid a huge price to redeem you. Repent!

[JohnKing67]

21 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

The command of God IS to sin not, in the Law, which Law shows that as the Law comes alive in our hearts, people sin. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7.

You do have to be sinless, perfect and without sin to be saved. You seem to think this is due to your effort, yet we both know you did many sins before you trusted Jesus Christ for salvation. How did THOSE sins go away, the ones you did before your conversion? Please don't tell me because you "repented". It's because Christ died 2,000 years ago for sins we committed in the 1980s, 1990s... If I believe your doctrine, a few thousand people in this country MIGHT be saved, not millions.

I think you need to be sure you are in a Bible-believing church. If your church teaches sinless perfectionism, they are cultish.

I'm going to repeat myself carefully again, for your sake, get off of your works and how pure and wonderful you are (because you are starting to sound like the people I know who are not believers, and say they're too good to need Jesus, and should go to Heaven on their merits) and get on board with how our wonderful Messiah paid a huge price to redeem you. Repent!

I've said repeatedly that my own efforts will not get me saved.  I might argue that repentance is necessary but I will concede that point if it helps and say that it's by trust in Christ only.  I don't have a problem with this.  But this only gets a person saved.  You still have to please God and live up to his standards once you are saved.  God has a standard to live up to.  Can I live up to that standard without his power helping me to do it?  Absolutely not.  That's why we all need Jesus.  Not just to get us saved but to live his life through us.  If you say God has no standard to live up to then you go against 1 John 3:9.

I think the problem is you believe salvation cannot be lost and so there's no reason to worry about sin.  I believe salvation can be lost and so there's a lot of reason to worry about it. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by JohnKing67

[Billiards Ball]

20 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

I've said repeatedly that my own efforts will not get me saved.  I might argue that repentance is necessary but I will concede that point if it helps and say that it's by trust in Christ only.  I don't have a problem with this.  But this only gets a person saved.  You still have to please God and live up to his standards once you are saved.  God has a standard to live up to.  Can I live up to that standard without his power helping me to do it?  Absolutely not.  That's why we all need Jesus.  Not just to get us saved but to live his life through us.  If you say God has no standard to live up to then you go against 1 John 3:9.

I think the problem is you believe salvation cannot be lost and so there's no reason to worry about sin.  I believe salvation can be lost and so there's a lot of reason to worry about it. 

There certainly is a standard. Perfection.

I cannot be perfect and rely on the payment for not meeting this standard.

Those who say salvation can be lost are not only calling Jesus untrue "who ever trusts in me shall never perish" but are focused on the work of people above the cross.

No one I've ever met who believes salvation can be lost can answer this question, "what must I do to be saved," yet the answer is in Acts, "trust Christ."

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

If you are living a life of sinless perfection, let me ask how you are doing with those pesky sins of omission that your type always refuses to address.How much of your idle time this past week did you spend working in hospitals and food kitchens, doing volunteer work to help those less fortunate than you?How many strangers did you invite into your home to feed and clothe?why do so many fail to see the obvious ? Every time one goes down the road of self- justification ,no matter what you think you have accomplished,the bar is always placed higher—- always beyond the reach of the deluded , proud sinner.You never committed adultery? So what ? If you ever looked with lust toward somebody , you have sinned.Doing pretty well with the 613 commandments? That’s great.James said however if you break just one , you have broken them all. Batted 1000 with all of  all of those have you? How you doing with the sins of omission that we discussed?Only the extremely blind could not see that there is a trend here.God is behind this trend of constantly raising the bar higher and higher.God purposely set a standard that both Peter and Paul admitted they nor their Jewish fathers could not keep.Law-keeping for Salvation is a fool’s errand and if you fail to see that with all the roadblocks that God has set in your way, you are unwise to say the least.God gave all these laws to prove that you can’t keep them. No amount of willl-power or self-control is enough to accomplish the impossible .One can only hope that God would just provide another way for Salvation.Praise God, He did.He sent His Son to fulfill all these laws and provide a way to be justified without the Law.It’s called FAITH. Christianity 101.Read Romans, at least the first three or four chapters to get familiar with God’s way to be saved.It is a way that is actually attainable for fallen, sinful men.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Blood Bought 1953