Do You Really Love The Sinner Hate The Sin

[LadyKay]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

With right arm raised up as high as it can go, jumping up and down on a trampoline, ASK ME, ASK ME ? ?

Do tell! 

[bropro]

When people ask me whether I am Republican or Democrat, I simply tell them that as a Christian I try my best to view life through the lens of scripture. With the political climate being as it is, and has been for some years, if I identify with the Liberal party I lose the ability to witness to those who are conservative. If I identify with the Conservative party, I lose the ability to witness to those who are Liberal. My ability to witness to people about Christ, is more important than winning a political argument. And my ability to love the sinner and hate the sin is possible only by the grace of God.

 

Gary

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven (Matthew 5:16).

What better way to speak the word of Christ than from a foundation of friendship? 

I feel the the believer’s conduct is a powerful example of the gospel for the unbelieving friend and those friendships should be retained. Being friends with unbelievers doesn't mean we accept their behavior or participate in it, quite the opposite. When we are in their company abstaining from sinful behavior we set a perfect example for them. Also, when we are showing love, compassion, and support towards them, that shows them that we, like Christ, love them despite their faults and are not ashamed to be in their company. Showing love, gentleness and respect towards our friends both old and new does not compromise the Gospel. 

When we are friends with only believers, we communicate to others that only believers have value and worth in our lives. I prefer to see every person as being created in the image of God and that Jesus died for them just as He did for me. Sharing the gospel goes way beyond words and speech.

If a longtime friend that we once trusted and could count on being there when we needed them leaves us because we are now a believer, maybe they weren't really our friend to begin with. If they were a true friend and they now avoid us because we are a believer, then maybe we were not defending the Truth with gentleness and respect. 

Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect; (1 Peter 3:15)

Jesus came with the truth and He didn’t mind talking about sin, but he did so with a heart of love, gentleness, and respect. 

Amen and Amen. Now that message of salvation and reconciliation has been entrusted to us to take into the world. 

All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

I suggest we read the Sermon on the Mount found in Matthew chapters 5-7 and the Book of Acts chapters 3-28 as a refresher. I agree that Jesus and His apostles are the best examples to follow.

What better way to speak the word of Christ than from a foundation of friendship? 

You got this all backwards  .    We are friendly not friends of or with the world or those of it . 

That is being unequally yoked .   the new evangelism .

I done told you numerous of times we are kind to all.    To the world we simply witness and speak of Christ .    they will either receive it or reject it .

the better way to speak the word of Christ ,   IS to rely on the Spirit and not mens ideals .   

You big time under that new way to evangelize and its doing great harm to you , whether you see it or not .    

Remember when JESUS said ,   you tithe and give mints ,  but over look the weightier matters .

THEN he said THIS you SHOULD DO and NOT leave the other undone .

WELL I got a message to all these men who preach this new evangelism .

Ye do good works ,   you feed the poor , BUT YOU OVER LOOK the MORE WEIGHTER MATTER of THE GOSPLE

THIS YOU SHOULD DO with out leaving the other works undone .  AKA.  MAKE THE GOSPLE THE FOREFRONT .   PREACH JESUS

while doing the good works to them .    But this is not their agenda .    THEY do as they do for the sake of unity , they do as they do for the sake of a bigger

agenda , that many are blind too.     IF we witness the way JESUS DID , the apostles did ,    we will see Division , we will be hated , BUT its the ONLY WAY to WIN SOULS .

This new agenda really stinks.    YOU say and agree with me about JESUS  HIS PATTERN and the apostles .  THEN WITNESS LIKE THEY DID .

[John_Leung]

Hey Kay, nice to hear from you again!  Most of my friends aren't Christians and some have lifestyles that would anger God, but I still hang out with them and pray for them often, while looking for opportunities to testify myself to them.  It's a constant battle, but even Jesus didn't distance Himself from sinners, otherwise, He probably wouldn't have came to the world.

However, I make it clear that I don't bent over to hang out with them when I have church or fellowships.  And I don't entirely be accommodating to them, either, knowing that I don't want to be a pushover.

[Guest shiloh357]

Preach the Gospel, itself.  Forming friendships as the basis for evangelism leads to compromise, if we are honest about it.   Without the emotional bond of friendship, I am free to be more honest and clear about a person's need for Jesus.   Friendships tend to soften the message about sin and we are to be more afraid that they will be offended if we are honest with them about their sin and their eternal future without Jesus.   And despite what liberal Christians will tell you, it is okay if someone is offended by the truth.   We are not called to "not offend."  We are called to tell them the truth and the truth is that without Christ, they are sinners, rightly under God's judgment and that they are doomed to an eternity without hope if they choose to continued separation from God. 

We need to take the emotion out of sharing the Gospel so that we are free to tell people what the Bible says.  We have one commission and this to make disciples, not to make converts.   That means we can share the Gospel and how they handle it is between them and God.   We are not under some quota system where God holds us accountable for every person that rejects the truth.  We are not accountable for the results; we are simply accountable for giving them the truth and there are those who will be offended and reject the message; that is between them and God.  But taking the emotion out of it, getting rid of the notion that we have to beg and grovel and burn ourselves out trying to get them saved, frees us up to honest and simply give them the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

Not being friends doesn't mean you are mean to them or don't care about them, but it means that you don't have anything to lose by telling them the unvarnished truth about where they stand with God without Jesus.  And it means you are not tempted to skirt around uncomfortable topics in order to preserve the friendship.   Friendships tend to water down the Gospel because we naturally get attached to our friends and them being offended is painful to us and so we tend to avoid what will be offensive and there is a lot about the Gospel that is offensive. 

So, it is better to follow Jesus' example and keep your friends among those whom you have Christ in common and only when someone is saved are they part of that community.   

[Guest shiloh357]

12 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Did you review Acts 3-28 before making this post? 

Also, have you ever taken the time to notice who hated Jesus and later the apostles? 

Let's look at some examples and see what they all have in common. 

 Jesus was opposed for eating with sinners

 

 

Jesus was accessible to sinners, but He was not "friends" with them.   Jesus never hang out with sinners.  His inner circle of friends were Peter, James and John and an out circle with the other disciples (except for Judas who Jesus called a demon).  Jesus loved sinners, but he was never "friends" with them. 

Jesus was opposed by the religious leaders, but Jesus' message was equally opposed by world and the apostle Paul and the other apostles paid a heavy price for sharing the Gospel ministry.   Paul, for example,  was stoned, flogged, beaten with rods, imprisoned and starved, and this opposition was from both Jewish and Gentile people throughout the Roman empire.  Paul never made friends with sinners either. Paul's ministry was about sharing the Gospel and starting churches and making disciples.  

Our "friends" need to be those who can encourage us in the faith, build us up, and impart wisdom.  And you cannot be friends with anyone without participating in their lives to some extent.  Friendship requires an emotional investment and a time investment and it is impossible to make that investment and not participate in what they do at least to some extent. 

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We can't love others as ourselves if we put walls of separation between "us" and "them." If a believer will choose only be friends with other believers and exclude unbelievers, that's called discrimination.

Separation and discrimination  are not necessarily a bag thing where holiness is concerned.   We are supposed to be separate from them.  Separate, but accessible.  Separate doesn't mean aloof, but it does mean that there are relational boundaries that cannot be crossed if we are to maintain God's requirement that we are to be a holy people.   It doesn't mean being unfriendly or snobbish, but it does mean that we cannot be "friends."   And "discrimination" isn't prejudice.   Discrimination simply means that I use discretion and discriminate between what I should and should not do.   We discriminate all of the time, or at least we should when it comes to who we allow into our lives.  

 

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Discriminating against others because they believe differently than us is putting a limit on our love for them.

Yes, that is true.  And there should be a limit.  Just like there is a limit on my love when it comes to married women.  Just like there is a limit on my love when it comes to children, or people that I work with, or go to church with.  Every type of relationship has its own boundaries and when those boundaries are crossed havoc and chaos ensues.   

Discrimination doesn't limit who we love, but it does limit how we love them and how that love is expressed.  The problem is that you are trying to couch discrimination in terms of prejudice and you are wrong for doing that.

 

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Too many Christians are becoming like the religious and legalistic people in Jesus' day and the world can see this.  This causes the light of the Church to become dim. 

Well then, you're really out of touch with what most Christians are like because if anything most Christians are headed the opposite direction.  Christianity is becoming more and more liberal, rejecting traditional doctrines, and sound theology, reading their Bibles less and less, embracing homosexuality as a valid expression of faith, embracing LGBT and gay marriage, embracing Evolution, and frankly, many Christians don't necessarily believe that sex  before marriage is wrong. 

If anything, Christians are not legalistic at all, they are accepting that other religions have something to contribute to their spiritual lives and are integrating Buddhism, Hinduism and other "isms" into their lives as part of their spiritual growth.   Fewer and fewer Christians see the Bible as the final authority on all matters of Christian faith an practice.   They deny its inerrancy and infallibility and even its total divine inspiration.   They are seeing it less and less relevant as they embrace homosexuality, LGBT, gay marriage and Evolution. 

This is what causes the light of the Church to become dim.  It is the abandonment of truth.   

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, LadyKay said:

Do tell! 

Careful LadyKay, you might get more than you bargained for   ?

[LadyKay]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Careful LadyKay, you might get more than you bargained for   ?

Nope! Won't bother me at all.  Fire Away! 

I know that much of what I think does not line up with what some other people on here think.  I assure you I will not be offended. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by LadyKay

[Guest shiloh357]

If you love the sinner, you will tell him he is a sinner.   You will tell him he is in danger of Hell and an eternity separated from God.   To not tell a sinner about the judgment of God is the most unloving and uncaring thing you can do.   Jesus preached on Hell extensively and we are removing Hell from our salvation presentation and it is really doing the world a disservice. 

Salvation doesn't make sense to the lost until they understand they are lost.  An old time black preacher who was a great soul-winner was asked what his method of evangelism was, which was producing so much fruit.   His answer was, "First I gets them lost, then I gets them saved."   People have to be brought to the realization that they are in danger and need salvation.  They won't see salvation as a need in their life until they realize what it is they need saving from. 

Until they realize that they are lost, that they have offended God's justice because of their sin and until they realize that their spiritual condition without Christ will only end up with them dying and going to Hell, they are unlikely to make a genuine profession of faith in Jesus. 

There was a lady I saw on a TV talk show years ago.  She used to weigh something like 800 lbs. Could barely move. She wore a mu-mu every where.   She was at a bus stop, and someone who was walking past the bus stop, a total stranger said,  "how could you let yourself get that big?"   She was offended. It made her mad; then it made her cry; but then it made her want to lose the weight.   She lost over 600 lbs. was down to just under 200 lbs. or so. She said that she never saw that person again, but said that this person who "offended" her did her the biggest favor anyone had ever done for her by forcing her to confront her weight and do something about it. 

Share the truth and don't worry if it will offend; it most likely will.   Share the truth and simply let God do his part. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Didn't Jesus seek out sinners to befriend when He selected His disciples? 

Nope. 

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Do you believe these men were without sin? 

Nope. 

Yes, there is no doubt about this.

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The only people that opposed Jesus' message were the religious leaders and those in power. Why would anyone else oppose a message that frees them from the bondage of the Law?

You need to read the book of Acts a little closer.  Paul was severely opposed by the Gentiles. 

 

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Who brought charges against Paul? It was always the religious leaders and those in Power. 

Once again, it was those in authority who were threatened by the gospel as it was causing conflict and unrest among the people. 

No, Paul was also charged by the Gentile pagans and was arrested and put in a Roman prison to await the verdict from Caeasar. Once again, you need to read your Bible. 

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Yet in his letters to the Churches, he is often pointing out the sins of its members. This would mean that believers were friends with sinners. 

No, it doesn't mean that at all. 

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Paul himself admits that he was not free from sin.

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (Romans 7:14-20)

Would you be friends with Paul in his day?

 

You are confusing issues.  This issue isn't about anyone being free from sin.  None us are perfect and all of us sin from time to time.   This is about being friends with those in the world who don't share our faith, or our values and who unsaved.   They are not our "friends."   It isn't that we shun them or treat them as outcasts or entirely dissociate with them.  That's impossible.   But neither should we take them as "friends."  

 

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Yes, it is very important that we have friends in the Church for those very reasons, but we have to find a balance. If we only have friends in the Church and shun those outside the Church who may want to befriend us, it makes us appear arrogant, hypocritical, and judgmental.

No, it doesn't. 

 

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This is the same mistake that the Church at Corinth was making and the reason Paul had to clarify himself to them. 

It is actually reported that there is immorality among you,

You have become arrogant... Your boasting is not good. 

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world...   (1 Corinthians 5:1,2,6,9-10,13)

 

No, when I said we are to be separate from them, I am not talking about separate in terms of avoiding them. But we are supposed to be separate from them in terms of what we participate in and in terms of lifestyle.   We are still accessible to them, but we are not be like them.

The mistake that the passage says that the Corinthians was making was not that they were not associating with the world.   You imposing that on to the text by only quoting selected verses.  When we examine the passage with all of the verses, the complaint is that they were allowing immorality to flourish their midst and were actually proud of it.  

 

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I disagree with this. Not all unbelievers indulge in a sinful lifestyle and many unbelievers have very high moral standards. Aside from not knowing Christ, that would be the only difference between them and a believer. On the other hand, there are unbelievers who live very immoral lives, but that doesn't mean we have to join them in those activities if we are their friends. Our faith in Christ and our commitment to the gospel protects us from that.

This is about living for His glory and remaining a holy people fully separated unto Him. 

 

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The only boundaries we need are not to participate in the friend's immoral behavior or deny our faith when in their company in my opinion. 

No, that is not the only boundaries. 

 

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Of course there have to be boundaries, but discriminating against having a friendship with someone simply because they do not know Christ is unfair to that person in my opinion. Befriending someone who does not know Christ may be what eventually brings that person to Christ. 

It's not unfair them at all. 

 

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How do you know if those people who embrace some of the above and claim to be Christians are believers to begin with? Anyone can say they are a Christian, but that doesn't make them a believer. 

It's borne out over time.  I am not friends with a lot of Christians because they engage in worldly behavior.   I am very picky about who I let into my life. 

 

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I had to come back to this one. If the message of Jesus was opposed by the world, Why did he receive such a triumphant welcome when He arrived in Jerusalem in the last days of His ministry?

They were not embracing Jesus' message.   They were attempting to make Him their Messiah.  The people followed Jesus for the miracles and for a lot of self-serving reasons.  Jesus message wasn't that He had come to be the Messiah, but had come to be their Savior.   Many of Jesus' own disciples in John 6 forsook Jesus to follow him no longer because He called himself God, and the giver of eternal life.   These people were not following and praising Jesus because of his message, but because of what they falsely perceived him to be at that time.   

 

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If the people of the world hated Jesus, why did the Pharisees feel so threatened by Him? 

Because Jesus threatened up end the social order and they were in a pretty posh position.  They were threatened that Jesus' movement would cause unrest and bring down the wrath of Rome. They were tasked by Rome to put down any perceived "messianic" movements and Jesus appeared to be starting just such a movement and they were doing everything they could to discredit him, which included having Him crucified as an enemy of the state.