Do You Really Love The Sinner Hate The Sin

[frienduff thaylorde]

9 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

 

Is this the gospel that brings salvation?

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.... righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood...  For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly… But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us… For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life...  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.”   (1 Corinthians 15:3,4)(Romans 3:22-25) (Romans 5:6, 8, 10)?(Ephesians 1:7)

WHY YES IT IS .   But you confused bad .    Because this is the same as repent and believe .  it always was .

You had more agreeing with you at the start .   I am only trying to help you UNDERSTAND and UNDERSTAND WELL,

that YOU NEED to be telling folks repent and believe  , not just being unequally yoked .  you learned evangelism WRONG .  

and the thing is ,   it could take but a second for you to accept this .    AND then LOOK at all the good you could do.   But you keep on refusing to hear .

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by George
Removed personal attack

[frienduff thaylorde]

7 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Jesus and the original disciples taught repentance, baptism, and belief. All were required for salvation in the gospel of the kingdom and repentance was the first step of salvation. That is not the gospel today.

Paul’s gospel is a gospel of grace and salvation comes from believing Christ died for our sins and rose again.

The gentiles were not under the Law, so why would repentance be required of them?

 

I got another question  .     I could give you an answer .   but WHY ,  you just going to do what you always do ,   twist it and keep arguing .  so what is the point .   i pray for now badjao.

But wiser men than me , once said ,  if after one or two admonitions one keeps rejecting ,   Well,  that one is in their own boat .   Cant keep striving with you , cause you wont listen .

Folks brought you good things , just as i did ,  and you bounced around it .  you asked i showed you , YOU BOUNCED around it .

WHEN folks do that ,   What is the POINT in continuing a debate .    you just going to keep doing it .

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

The gentiles were not under the Law, so why would repentance be required of them?

God wants ALL to come to repentance.

2Pe 3:9
(9)  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

Repentance is fundamental to salvation, but because all sinners are dead in their trespasses and sins and cannot repent without the goodness of God leading them to do so, the word of God must first take root and germinate in fertile places of the heart.

Rom 2:4
(4)  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 Heb 5:14

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Heb 6:1-3

(1)  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

(2)  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

(3)  And this will we do, if God permit.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 I lifted this from another thread that I was in......Repentance  is MANDANTORY for salvation.....let me make that clear.Repentance does not mean to quit sinning,however. God repented more than anyone else in the Bible and we know He did not have to conquer any sin.Repentance for salvation means to have a change of mind—— seeing you are not as hot as you think you are in God’s eyes. You need to see for the first time that you are a wretched sinner, without hope except for the Shed Blood Of Christ on the Cross.It is a life long change of how you view yourself.It is the evidence of a contrite heart, without which you ain’t gonna be saved.THAT is repentance.It sounds just like this—- “Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!” The purpose of the Law is to drive you to that truth.If you have not had that “Woe is Me” moment of “ fear and trembling” in your relationship with God, you could be lacking that relationship.As always, I could be wrong.I am betting my eternal soul that I am not.

I should add that repentance is built-in to the first half of Paul’s Gospel  thAt saves us. That “ Jesus died for our sins” part. It has to hit home.You have seen you are a sinner and can do nothing to save yourself. It took the death and resurrection of Christ to do that.Many have heard that “Jesus died for my sins” so many times that it fails to resonate in the manner that it should.It must be heart- felt or don’t waste your time with Christianity—- devote your life to something you understand as most do— become a religionist.That “broad gate” thingy.

One last thing.....this “Repentance towards God” that leads to “faith in Christ“can’t be conjured up by us.It is a gift from God via His Holy Spirit, for nobody comes to God “ lest the Spirit draw him”.Thank God that “all who ask shall receive”

Edited October 4, 2018 by Blood Bought 1953

[Guest shiloh357]

 What the Gospel IS, and how the Gospel is PREACHED are two different things.   The Gospel is simply the message that God has made it possible for man to be redeemed and to be fully restored back to God.   In the Old Testament, they were looking forward to redemption at the cross and we are looking backward at the cross.   They were placing faith in the Redeemer to come, and we place our faith in the Redeemer who has come.

The thief on the cross was saved.   He did not have to be baptized or indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  He simply recognized who Jesus was and placed faith in him.   The thief recognized the innocence and sinlessness of Jesus, recognized and confessed his own sinfulness, recognized Jesus' true identity as both Messiah and Savior, and asked for salvation. He defended Jesus and proclaimed Jesus to the other thief and  to anyone else who was in ear shot.  Jesus granted salvation to that thief.  All of that was under the Old Covenant.  The thief appropriated the Gospel message by faith in the Redeemer, Jesus.

Repentance is not required for salvation, but it is required and a person who is not genuinely interested in salvation will not be repentant.  Repentance is simply our response to the Gospel expressed in a sincere desire to serve the Lord. If you are not repentant, you probably will not move forward toward faith in Jesus.

Baptism is not required for salvation, but it is required per the commandment of Jesus.  Again, a person who genuinely wants to be saved will happily and thankfully obey

The indwelling the Holy Spirit is the one big difference in the experience of salvation between the OT and NT.  The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was only given to a select few for special purposes in the OT, but is the experience of all believers in the NT.   But believers all the way back in the OT were just as saved then as believers are today.

The Gospel is the good news of God's redemption and mercy to man.    We present the Gospel in terms of God's mercy expressed in the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus.   That is how the Gospel is preached. 

Our presentation of the Gospel MUST always begin with the bad news.  The bad news has be to brought out in order to explain why the good news is good. The bad news is man's sinfulness before God and how we got to that point.  The bad news is that due to Adam's sin in the garden there is a curse that has been hanging over the corporate heads of humanity and all men therefore, stand by default, under the judgement of God.   All men have offended God's justice, and are the objects of His contempt. The penalty for this offense is death.   This is what we rightfully deserve and unless there is a change, those who are born in this default condition will have nothing to look forward to in eternity except the Lake of Fire.

God is within His rights to destroy each of us.  That is what we rightfully deserve and in and of ourselves, there is nothing that any man or woman can do that will change their condition and standing before God.  On his own, man is without hope.   You are not okay, you are not basically good, you are a worm, a stench in the nostrils of God, you are an enemy of God and you are ripe for destruction and rightfully so.  Your best deeds on your best days are filthy rags before Him. That is where you stand before God because in your depraved human condition, you are a sinner and there is nothing good about you. As Scripture says:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Rom 3:10-19)

That aspect of our message doesn't sell books, doesn't fill up churches, doesn't win us any friends because it strikes the heart of human pride and shows man just what he is before God.  Until we drive that home to people, they are less likely to understand why good news is "good."  They are less likely to understand what they need to be saved from.   If one's purpose is to build friendships with sinners, one is less likely to present the above reality to sinners in order to protect the friendship. 

The GOOD NEWS is that God, in His grace, has chosen to have mercy upon us.   God is under NO obligation to save us and had He chosen to destroy us, He would have been righteous and just in doing so. Thus, this redemption is totally an act of His grace and nothing more.   But He has chosen to be merciful and redeem us and restore us back to Himself.   God's "program," if you want to call it that, is about restoring mankind back to himself, it is about repairing the relationship that was broken in the Garden of Eden.   That's what the Gospel is.  It is the good news that man can be restored back to a right relationship with God.  

God accomplished this, God made the Gospel possible by sending His Son Jesus to the earth to  be an offering for sin.   Jesus sole purpose in His first coming was to be our Savior in that He was going to be a willing sacrifice for our sin pay our full sin debt and rise again having fully satisfied the justice of God on hour behalf and making it possible for man to restored back into right standing with Him.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

@shiloh357 may i cut and paste this into a Word document to use for myself and others please?

Feel free to do so.

[Raven]

On 9/29/2018 at 6:13 AM, LadyKay said:

I thought this might make for an interesting post. I hear this phrase a lot. Love the sinner hate the sin. But do we really do that? Would you go out to lunch with someone who's lifestyle you didn't agree with?  Would you invite your Muslim neighbor over for a cake and coffee. Or in my case it would tea cause I don't drink coffee.  Sometimes I think we as Christians have an "us and them" way of looking at the world. Like somehow we are better then they are. We get all offended and we just don't like certain kinds of people. I visit the political forums on this site and I have seen what many of us think about Liberals. I myself don't think being a Liberal is a sin but clearly some of you do. So if you think being a Liberal is a sin, would you befriend a Liberal?  Invite them over for a cook out? So what do you all think? Do you really love sinners? 

The sinner does not know what they are truthfully doing. If the did, they would not sin. In other words, the sinner is deluded and untruthful.

Sin is being untruthful and unreal.

There is nothing to love about the sinner, or the sin.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Doesn't this message of the gospel do all of those things? 

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.... righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood...  For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly… But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us… For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life...  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.”   (1 Corinthians 15:3,4)(Romans 3:22-25)(Romans 5:6, 8, 10)(Ephesians 1:7)

No, and that is not a "message."   That is a bunch of passages you strung together.   I have presented what it looks like to actually confront a sinner about their sinful, condemned standing before God apart from Christ. 

[Guest shiloh357]

47 minutes ago, Badjao33 said:

Yes, I use the Bible as part of my gospel presentation along with my testimony.  Those verses I strung together is how I present the gospel and whether I use my words or the scriptures, the message is the same. 

Those verses are not the "Gospel."  

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Why don't you believe that the gospel alone can confront the sinner? 

The Gospel isn't a message of condemnation.  The Gospel is a message of redemption, deliverance and restoration back into a right relationship with God.  It is "good news." 

As I have already stated, the confrontation about Sin, death, condemnation and Hell are what helps sinners understand they are sinners, their standing before God as sinners and the fact that they are under a curse and the judgement of God if they don't repent of their sin and believe the Gospel.   It is that confrontation that helps them understand why the good news is "good."   

The verses you strung together don't present the whole picture.  

By way of analogy:

Bob goes to the doctor for a check up.  The doctor, in the course of the examination, tells Bob about a  new pill that has just been approved by the FDA that will sure Mesothelioma.  Just take the pill once a day and in three days, a person can be totally free of Mesothelioma.   Bob is glad that the pill is out there, but that pill isn't something he has any need for, at least he doesn't think he needs it and so he is not going to ask the doctor to prescribe it.   He has nothing but passive interest in that pill. 

One year later:   The doctor tells Bob that he is diagnosing him with Mesothelioma and gives him 6 months to live, but reminds Bob about the pill that will cure it.   NOW, that pill that he didn't care about one year ago, has suddenly become a lot more interesting.   Now that Bob has discovered that he is in danger he is far more interested in how to get out of danger and he wants to know more about that pill.

People need to hear the bad news.  They need to hear an honest, upfront assessment of where they stand with God and the reality that they are headed for Hell.   Nothing is worse than to not tell people about Hell.   The level of importance that a person places on Hell will be the level of importance they place on Jesus.   Jesus is far more important to those who understand and take seriously, their eternal future.   Jesus is everything to the person who realizes that they need Him and need to be saved.  

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Badjao33 said:

The message I share shows people that they are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, they are helpless, enemies of God, and un-Godly. What's missing? Don't you feel that there's power in the gospel to make them understand they are sinners or bring someone to an hour of decision with us having to point it out for them?

Why do you have such an aversion to telling people the truth about sinful, hopeless and condemned standing before God apart from Christ?   Why is it that you want to avoid that part of the truth?

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It's the gospel that reveals the fact that the people are lost sinners and brings them to a point of decision.

No, it is the preaching of the cross that does that.   The Gospel is simply good news that they can be redeemed and brought into right standing with God.   That very fact implies they are out of right standing with God.   But it is the preaching of the cross that explains why they are out of right standing in the first place and what the consequences are for remaining out of right standing.   The image of a beaten, battered, bloody body of Jesus on the cross is what our sin looks like to God and that is why we need to preach the cross.  The preaching of the cross makes it clear that man's sin separates Him from God and that man needs both forgiveness of sin and deliverance from being under the power of sin and the curse that comes with it.    

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It's not before we are born again that we truly recognize our sinful nature, but after.

No, that is not true.  Lot's of people are brought to the realization through the convicting power of the Holy Spirit when they are told what the Bible says about the condemnation they are under.   It is through the preaching of the cross that the Holy Spirit brings people to that realization, when He convicts their heart of sin.  

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 It's at that point when we become more aware of what God considers sin and just how fallen we actually were. The person sharing the gospel can't possible bring a person to that level of understanding no matter how hard they try. 

WE can't.   But through the preaching of the cross the Holy Spirit does.   But we have to preach what God has ordained to be preached, which is the message of the cross.   That is what God uses to bring people to Himself. 

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It's not an evangelist or a preacher confronting the person about their sins or telling them that they will suffer in Hell for eternity that makes the person decide to accept the gospel. 

I never said it did.  I said that it brings them to an understanding of their need for Christ.  It brings them to an understanding of what they need to be saved from.  It makes it clear to them that they are in danger and what that danger is and it makes it clear to them where they stand with God and that they possess nothing in and of themselves that will change that condition.   It addresses their pride and feelings of self-sufficiency and tells them that in God's eyes they are not good, but rather that their sin has made them an enemy of God.  

Everyone responds to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.  Some rebel and some will accept those facts and want to know how to be saved.  Some will brush it off and some will want to know how to appropriate the Gospel.  

But the worst thing you can do is to slough off telling them the truth about lives and their standing before God and especially failing to tell them the eternal consequences they are in danger of if they reject God's grace.  

 

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Can you show me where Paul pointed out the individual's sins or where he told unbelievers that they would spend and eternity tormented in Hell if they don't accept the gospel? Did he ever ask the people if they accepted it or not when he was evangelizing the lost? 

Speaking to unbelieving  interlocutors (an ancient rhetorical tactic) in Rom. 2 Paul said this:

" But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 
(Rom 2:5-9)

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 
(2Th 1:7-9)

Now he was not writing that to unbelievers, but to believers.   The point is that Paul's teaching about Hell  is part of the biblical record and it is to be preached.   The Bible doesn't go into the discussions that Paul had with unbelievers.   But if Paul is teaching believers about Hell and what unbelievers are facing if they reject the truth, it is not far fetched at all to say that he would have spoke about Hell to unbelievers. 

Paul was passionate about preaching and there was with that passion, a sense of urgency.  Paul wanted people to get saved and the information given  to us in the Bible needs to be disseminated to the world.   Sinners need to hear that they are sinners and stand cursed and condemned because of their sin. 

Any preacher who isn't telling sinners about Hell, who isn't making it clear to them that they are under a curse and need Jesus in order to be delivered and set free from that curse is an impotent preacher.