Trinity Questions

[Guest Mormon Mike]

Timothy,

  Thank you for taking the time to post, I have studied the scripture you had posted for many years now.  At first glance John 1:1 apears to suggest there was more than one personage present. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In English, to say that Christ, the Word, was with God and was God could be understood in either the seperate being sense (two beings perfectly united in one Godhead) or in the trinitarian sense (two persons in one Being) or arguably in other senses as well, such as Modalism (two manifestations of the same person).

 However, the Greek text helps us sort through these possibilities a little better. The first and third occurrence of the word "God" in these verses comes from Greek Ho Theos, meaning THE God, while the second occurrence is simply Theos, meaning God. The English translation could be rendered, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God." There is no suggestion that the Word and The God are the same Being. One divine being, Christ, was WITH another divine being, THE God.  

 Something to think about, any thoughts on this?  And as always I dont mind being told I am wrong!  

 Mike

[Timothy]

Your explanation falls a bit short when it comes to the second verse quoted Mike. The Word was God, and the Word became flesh (Jesus).

It is further supported by the words of Christ Himself;

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[Guest Mormon Mike]

Timothy,

   As for the second scripture

[Timothy]

Do you believe Jesus to be creation or creator Mike?

[Guest]

Hello Mormon Mike,

I just wanted to touch on Gen 1:26 and the word <'elohiym> translated "God," singular in this verse, and in a couple of thousand others.

First I would just like to address the word itself.

[Work in Progress]

MM, is there anything repugnant to you regarding the idea that they are one, that causes you to not want to believe that? What is it exactly that offends you about it, if indeed it is offensive?

I heard about the "Trinity" before I could walk. I never knew this was a controversy in the church until I came to this board. I was surprised. Mainly because of the verses Tim posted. I always thought it was pretty clear that there is one God, and that that God has three parts.

I can't prove it, I can only take it on faith because Scripture says it is so.

I'm just wondering what about it bothers you?  It just doesn't seem that dire to me. If one does believe it, then God is Holy. If one doesn't believe it, then God is still Holy to them , Jesus is still Holy to them, no big deal.

Maybe I'm asking why this is such a controversy?

BTW, welcome. I'd love to have some Mormon/Non Mormon debates.

[Work in Progress]

What Stephen said was that he saw the "Son of Man" meaning that humanity which the Jews had crucified standing on the right hand of God.

The right hand of God is a Jewish phrase meaning the power of God. It is rarely use to imply a direction . . . and certainly it doen't mean a little Jesus was literally standing on the hand of God.

Blindseeker, is it possible that you are reading a whole lot into this, and are making explanations so as to fit your point?

I tend to be simplistic, and I take the Bible literally, and I certainly thought that he really DID see Jesus standing there. What is wrong with that? Stephen was being tortured and got relief by seeing his Saviour welcoming Him.

I also know Jesus is God. I just thought it one of those mysteries of God that I'm taking on faith and will be revealed to me in eternity.

I have a feeling I'm going to be sorry I entered this. LOL      

[Guest Mormon Mike]

Blindseeker,

    This is why I love to have conversations like this one; it opens my mind to new possibilities.  For example I was not aware off hand that the word elohiym has been used in the singular structure so many times, but your point is well taken that it was used in both the plural and singular.  A very good post Blindseeker, I look forward to learning more.

 Mike

[Guest Mormon Mike]

Work,

MM, is there anything repugnant to you regarding the idea that they are one, that causes you to not want to believe that?

Work, there is nothing in the debate that is repugnant to me, I have heard both sides of the debate and they both sound convincing to me.

[Timothy]

Mike,

Did you miss my question?

Do you believe Jesus to be creator or creation?