PRE, MID or POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE?

[JustJoe1980]

22 hours ago, LivingbyFaith said:

Hi there, 

Just wondering...which rapture do you believe in - pre, mid or post tribulation and why?

I believe in the post tribulation rapture as Jesus says in His Word;

MATTHEW 24:3-35

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ ^a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ ^b

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth ^c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. ^d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it ^e is near, right at the door.34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

 

Revelations as always been tough one to understand

But I get the notion that it kind of represents a mystery and people love getting good mystery even if it has a bad ending or good

[OldCoot]

Well, Matthew 24 says that those who see the abomination of desolation need to flee. Well, I don't live in Judea,  so I am pretty sure that doesn't apply to me.  

And the elect of Matthew 24, given the context of Judea, seems more likely to be the elect that Isaiah talks about... 

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And I am quite confident that Matthew 25 has nothing to do with me either.

All one has to do is a detailed study on the ancient Jewish marriage to get a grasp on the 10 virgins parable.  They are not the bride of Messiah for one.  And the text (at least in the Greek) states that the marriage feast/banquet is going on.  In the ancient Jewish marriage, that occurs 7 days after the groom has taken his bride to the marriage chamber/chupah and they have consummated the marriage. Then they emerge and the marriage feast/banquet begins.  The virgins are akin to the bridesmaids of a marriage.

And the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the redeemed either.  The nations are gathered and judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren.  Yeshua is Hebrew, of the tribe of Judah.  His brethren are the Hebrew people, not the Church.  How do I know this?   The story is a expository lecture on Joel 3.  And Yeshua is giving that lecture right on the spot where He will judge the nations... the Mount of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

Joel 3:1-3  For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
3 “They have also cast lots for My people,
Traded a boy for a harlot
And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.

So, since all these things seem to have nothing to do with the redeemed before the GT period, then it doesn't seem likely that the redeemed Church is part of that. 

And there are lots of passages in the OT that say the righteous are hidden/protected from that period, some passages going to far as to say hidden in the Tabernacle of YHVH.  Psalms 27:5 (which refers to Jeremiah 30:7) says that..

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

And compare what Yeshua says...

John 14:1-3  Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

To this.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

And it just seems so outside the nature and character of YHVH to allow the redeemed to go thru that period.  Why would YHVH allow the Body of Messiah be beaten and killed since they have been redeemed by the beating and killing of Yeshua?   After all, the redeemed are made righteous by the covering atonement of Yeshua.  All the Father sees when He looks at a redeemed person is His Son.   The idea that those redeemed must go thru the period reeks of flagellation stuff people do in some sort to vain attempt to feel worthy.  Or what could also be some sort of "protestant purgatory" type of thing.  And it borders on a pride thing.

At the very least, it sounds like a lack of understanding of what redemption thru Messiah is, and also a lack of understanding what that period is about and who it is intended for.

Edited November 3, 2018 by OldCoot
Spelling

[JustJoe1980]

28 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Well, Matthew 24 says that those who see the abomination of desolation need to flee. Well, I don't live in Judea,  so I am pretty sure that doesn't apply to me.  

And the elect of Matthew 24, given the context of Judea, seems more likely to be the elect that Isaiah talks about... 

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And I am quite confident that Matthew 25 has nothing to do with me either.

All one has to do is a detailed study on the ancient Jewish marriage to get a grasp on the 10 virgins parable.  They are not the bride of Messiah for one.  And the text (at least in the Greek) states that the marriage feast/banquet is going on.  In the ancient Jewish marriage, that occurs 7 days after the groom has taken his bride to the marriage chamber/chupah and they have consummated the marriage. Then they emerge and the marriage feast/banquet begins.  The virgins are akin to the bridesmaids of a marriage.

And the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the redeemed either.  The nations are gathered and judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren.  Yeshua is Hebrew, of the tribe of Judah.  His brethren are the Hebrew people, not the Church.  How do I know this?   The story is a expository lecture on Joel 3.  And Yeshua is giving that lecture right on the spot where He will judge the nations... the Mount of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

Joel 3:1-3  For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
3 “They have also cast lots for My people,
Traded a boy for a harlot
And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.

So, since all these things seem to have nothing to do with the redeemed before the GT period, then it doesn't seem likely that the redeemed Church is part of that. 

And there are lots of passages in the OT that say the righteous are hidden/protected from that period, some passages going to far as to say hidden in the Tabernacle of YHVH.  Psalms 27:5 (which refers to Jeremiah 30:7) says that..

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

And compare what Yeshua says...

John 14:1-3  Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

To this.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

And it just seems so outside the nature and character of YHVH to allow the redeemed to go thru that period.  Why would YHVH allow the Body of Messiah be beaten and killed since they have been redeemed by the beating and killing of Yeshua?   After all, the redeemed are made righteous by the covering atonement of Yeshua.  All the Father sees when He looks at a redeemed person is His Son.   The idea that those redeemed must go thru the period reeks of flagellation stuff people do in some sort to vain attempt to feel worthy.  Or what could also be some sort of "protestant purgatory" type of thing.  And it borders on a pride thing.

At the very least, it sounds like a lack of understanding of what redemption thru Messiah is, and also a lack of understanding what that period is about and who it is intended for.

That's a lot of content to take in all at once

[OldCoot]

6 minutes ago, JustJoe1980 said:

That's a lot of content to take in all at once

Yeah, I admit that.   But the crux of the topic has swung to where it was stated that the redeemed are part of Matthew 24 and go thru that period. It needed to be shown definitely that the Church is not in view.  The scripture references are what takes up the most space.

Edited November 3, 2018 by OldCoot

[LivingbyFaith]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Well, Matthew 24 says that those who see the abomination of desolation need to flee. Well, I don't live in Judea,  so I am pretty sure that doesn't apply to me.  

And the elect of Matthew 24, given the context of Judea, seems more likely to be the elect that Isaiah talks about... 

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And I am quite confident that Matthew 25 has nothing to do with me either.

All one has to do is a detailed study on the ancient Jewish marriage to get a grasp on the 10 virgins parable.  They are not the bride of Messiah for one.  And the text (at least in the Greek) states that the marriage feast/banquet is going on.  In the ancient Jewish marriage, that occurs 7 days after the groom has taken his bride to the marriage chamber/chupah and they have consummated the marriage. Then they emerge and the marriage feast/banquet begins.  The virgins are akin to the bridesmaids of a marriage.

And the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the redeemed either.  The nations are gathered and judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren.  Yeshua is Hebrew, of the tribe of Judah.  His brethren are the Hebrew people, not the Church.  How do I know this?   The story is a expository lecture on Joel 3.  And Yeshua is giving that lecture right on the spot where He will judge the nations... the Mount of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

Joel 3:1-3  For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
3 “They have also cast lots for My people,
Traded a boy for a harlot
And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.

So, since all these things seem to have nothing to do with the redeemed before the GT period, then it doesn't seem likely that the redeemed Church is part of that. 

And there are lots of passages in the OT that say the righteous are hidden/protected from that period, some passages going to far as to say hidden in the Tabernacle of YHVH.  Psalms 27:5 (which refers to Jeremiah 30:7) says that..

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

And compare what Yeshua says...

John 14:1-3  Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

To this.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

And it just seems so outside the nature and character of YHVH to allow the redeemed to go thru that period.  Why would YHVH allow the Body of Messiah be beaten and killed since they have been redeemed by the beating and killing of Yeshua?   After all, the redeemed are made righteous by the covering atonement of Yeshua.  All the Father sees when He looks at a redeemed person is His Son.   The idea that those redeemed must go thru the period reeks of flagellation stuff people do in some sort to vain attempt to feel worthy.  Or what could also be some sort of "protestant purgatory" type of thing.  And it borders on a pride thing.

At the very least, it sounds like a lack of understanding of what redemption thru Messiah is, and also a lack of understanding what that period is about and who it is intended for.

New Living Translation
"Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.

[LivingbyFaith]

3 minutes ago, LivingbyFaith said:

New Living Translation
"Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.

The Lord Jesus clearly taught a Post-Tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 (& Mark 13:24-27).
"Immediately after the Tribulation of those days .... he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"(cf. Mark 13:27). 

[OldCoot]

29 minutes ago, Cletus said:

but the church is in view...

To the Church in Smyrna
Rev 2:8  And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

No correlation to Matthew 24 in any way.  It says "ye shall have tribulation" but it does not say they go into the "great tribulation" that Matthew 24 talks about.  It is always wise to look at what is actually written and not impose more on the text than is there, especially preconceived notions. And believers have had the admonition to be faithful unto death since before Steven got stoned.  

And how do we overcome?    It sure isn't by our works and such.

1 John 5:4-5  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God

And Revelation 12 does talk about Satan being cast to earth and he is the accuser of the brethren, but they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.   Still no reference there that the Church goes into the Great Tribulation. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

20 minutes ago, LivingbyFaith said:

New Living Translation
"Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers.

Sure.   Take a look at believers in ancient Rome.  How about N. Korea now?   That still doesn't state that the church goes into the Great Tribulation.  

[OldCoot]

28 minutes ago, LivingbyFaith said:

The Lord Jesus clearly taught a Post-Tribulation Rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 (& Mark 13:24-27).
"Immediately after the Tribulation of those days .... he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"(cf. Mark 13:27). 

Isaiah 45:4  For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And in Matthew 25, it is the Hebrew people that are Yeshua's brethren on which the nations are gathered and being judged.  See Joel 3:1-3.

There is the elect redeemed, there is also the elect nation of Israel.  Two distinct entities.

And it never says in scripture that those in the Church are gathered by angels.  Yeshua says that He will receive them unto Himself.   Paul says we are "caught up".  Angels are not ever involved.

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Edited November 3, 2018 by OldCoot

[Marilyn C]

`But concerning the times and the seasons brethren, you have no need that I should write to you for YOU  YOURSELVES  know perfectly  that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

For when THEY SAY "PEACE AND SAFETY,!"  then sudden destruction comes upon THEM  as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And THEY shall not escape.

But YOU BRETHREN  are not in darkness so that this day should overtake you as a thief. ` (! Thess. 5: 1 - 4)

 

Notice the YOU and the THEY.  Different groups there. One in the light and one in darkness.

And Matt. 24 shows when the `birth pangs` start - `All these are the beginning of sorrows, (birth pangs.` (Matt. 24: 8)

As the Body of Christ in NOT in darkness then they will NOT be overtaken by these as those in darkness are. We will be looking to the Lord to bring His Body to maturity and take it to its eternal setting with Him to rule and reign over the world system and fallen angels.

Marilyn.