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JoeCanada

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Hi RM and Abdicate,

The Rapture is going on as we speak!

Yes, it's true.

" Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first......"

Now you all say that the falling away (from the faith) is not really a falling away, but a Rapture........

Well, it's here, and it looks like a slow process...... And it seems that the journalist also has it wrong, he should have said " there is a mass RAPTURE from the............ (Christian faith)"..............(earth????)

"That makes young adults the single largest group of “nones” in the entire country.  We are living at a time when there is a mass exodus from the Christian faith in America, and it is likely going to take something quite dramatic to reverse that trend.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/between-6000-and-10000-churches-in-the-u-s-are-dying-each-year-and-that-means-that-over-100-will-die-this-week

Number 1, I never buy secular writers, I have been told that that stat is bogus but haven't really looked into it in depth. Young people being indoctrinate by college professors might mean they never really come unto Christ to start with, and that in no wise stops the Gospel from going forth unto all the world and thus growing. Churches CLOSE & OPEN, I never take anyones stats at face value, there are probably being used to try and influence young people to SEE that Christianity is a losing, fake lifestyle in theor opinion. I see the Church as Growing until the Rapture comes, I would never fall for someone likes this' propaganda. 

 

Your premise is wrong to start with, this is THE RAPTURE. The rest is not relevant after that is it ? 

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On 11/24/2018 at 1:24 PM, Revelation Man said:

No, I put things together guided by the Holy Spirit. Anyone that uses logic understands the Holy Spirit is not going to leave the earth during the 70th week or tribulation period, the Holy Spirit has to being the plagues of God upon mankind !! Paul tells them, I told you before when I was with you, This is why using Paul's "LETTERS" as holy writ I never got, sure it is word from God, but Paul had no clue they were going to canonize his writing's or he would have been MUCH CLEARER in many instances, of course, but while writing a letter, you don't want to repeat what has already been taught in long form handwriting, that would be a waste of time, so of course he just HINTED at what was spoken of between them, thus we have to be great detectives!! 

When did the FOURTH BEAST and all the Beasts CEASE ? (Head wound) When the Church was born it delivered a mortal wound to the Beast System. The gates of hell can't prevail against the Church. We keep the Beast System from forming, coming together, we have great power via prayer...Whatsoever ye bind on earth will be bound in heaven !! When we leave that binding power is GONE !! The world will again be set up to be taken over by the Beast with 10 Toes. We KEEP THE BEAST AT BAY !! We withhold the Beast. 

Just look at the Beast, its common sense.......FOUR BEASTS........2000 YEARS OF NO BEAST..........RAPTURE..........Beast Arises again.

 

 

No, the HS is not going to leave the earth.  But He will hand off the redeemed to the Messiah just like the servant who went and secured a bride for Isaac then handed off the bride to Isaac, and then step aside to allow the antichrist and all the evil associated with him to come forth.  Kinda like a guard or tackle in Amercian football would step aside and allow the opposing team into the backfield.  But the guards or tackles do not leave the field when they do that.  The "taken out of the way" in the passage does not mean the HS leaves the earth. It means what it says... taken out of the way.  The HS will no longer be blocking evil from overpowering the earth but will step aside and let it all get thru.  

Edited by OldCoot

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Posted (edited)
On 11/18/2018 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

To which dictionaries are you referring?

The Greek dictionary in Strong's:

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
 
Greek to English translators show apostasia = apostasy
Merriam Webster:

Apostasy

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

Dictionary.com

Apostasy

a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

Thefreedictionary.com

Apostasy 

 "Abandonment of one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause."

American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. 

"Abandonment of one's religious faith, party, a cause, etc"

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © Harper Collins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014

"Renunciation or abandonment of one's religious faith or of an object of one's previous loyalty."

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

"Abandonment or renunciation of one's religion or morals."

Farlex Trivia Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.

"Relinquishing of a religious belief."

-Ologies & -Isms. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

Check out the citations at Thefreedictionary.com, impressive group. So we have the pantheon of wordmasters defining apostasy as "renouncing religious belief", not "leaving form one place to go to another".

Even "aphistemi", the term on which pretrib loves to rely when defining the correct term in 2 Thess 2:3, is defined:

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from
Definition: to lead away, to depart from
Usage: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.
 
You'll grasp at 'to depart from' here but as you can see any departing is an individual act akin to divorce. Finish the study and check the lexicon to see the usage of this term by the authors. The preponderance of evidence in that usage reveals the truth. I'll just cite that usage for your consideration:
 
Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 868: ἀφίστημι

Aphistemi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove; tropically, to excite to revolt: Acts 5:37  and in Greek writings from Herodotus 1, 76 down).

2.  to stand off, stand aloof, in various senses (as in Greek writings) according to the context: ἀπό with the genitive of person to go away, depart, from anyone, Luke 13:27 (from Psalm 6:9; cf. Matthew 7:23ἀποχωρεῖτε ἀπ' ἐμοῦ); Acts 12:10; Acts 19:9; 

3. to desert, withdraw from, one, Acts 15:38; to cease to vex one, Luke 4:13; Acts 5:38; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 

4. to fall away, become faithless, ἀπό Θεοῦ, Hebrews 3:12;

5. to shun, flee from, ἀπό τῆςἀδικίας, 2 Timothy 2:19. Middle, 

6. to withdraw oneself from: absolutely, to fall away,Luke 8:13; (τῆς πίστεως, 1 Timothy 4:1, cf. Winers Grammar, 427, 428 (398)); 

7. to keep oneself away from, absent oneself from, Luke 2:37 (οὐκ ἀφίστατο ἀπό (T Tr WH omit ἀπό) τοῦ ἱεροῦ, she was in the temple every day); from anyone's society or fellowship, 1 Timothy 6:5 Rec. 

It's a departing alright, departing from one's beliefs, not from earth to heaven or the clouds or the sky.

And I don't agree to disagree. I want all my brothers and sisters to hear the truth in our Lord and come to great knowledge and deep understanding; to trust and rely on our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to keep us safe even as we all cling to His many wonderful promises.

War is coming, best to carry the banner of the King of kings and stand behind His shield.

 

 

You are doing a similar thing that my geology professors did in college.  Circular reasoning.

They would say the rock strata are dated by the fossils contained within them.  But if you asked them to prove the date of the fossils, they would say the date is relative to the rock strata they are found in.  Just go around in circles.

You are doing a similar thing by using a dictionary definition of apostasy to make your point.  But apostasy is an anglicized form of the word apostosia that doesn't have any relation to the meaning of apostosia or aphistemi.  You are allowing a later anglicized word to define itself when the word has no relation to the original it was derived from.

It might have been brought out already but I missed it but the Latin Vulgate (4th century) used "discessio" for apostosia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and discessio has a meaning of a spatial or physical departure not a spiritual one. 

I realize that if 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has in mind the spatial / physical departure of the redeemed before the antichrist can be revealed, it is as Dr. Andy Woods has stated.... "game, set, match" for the pre-trib position. And that would explain why there are some who will fight with their last breath to deny that a physical departure or rapture is in view in that passage.    

But it may just be that simple.  And like the plain, simple message of the Gospel of Messiah is hard for some to swallow, the idea of a early removal of the righteous is hard to swallow. It just doesn't fit the world view that we have to play a role in our redemption and we must prove ourselves worthy.  The basis of every other religion on the planet.

Edited by OldCoot
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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

No, the HS is not going to leave the earth.  But He will hand off the redeemed to the Messiah just like the servant who went and secured a bride for Isaac then handed off the bride to Isaac, and then step aside to allow the antichrist and all the evil associated with him to come forth.  Kinda like a guard or tackle in Amercian football would step aside and allow the opposing team into the backfield.  But the guards or tackles do not leave the field when they do that.  The "taken out of the way" in the passage does not mean the HS leaves the earth. It means what it says... taken out of the way.  The HS will no longer be blocking evil from overpowering the earth but will step aside and let it all get thru.  

This below was my reply on this site 2 days ago about a similar discussion via 2 Thess. 2. 

Agreed, where people get a wee bit confused in that passage is the Holy Spirit is ordered to stop blocking the Anti-Christ/Man of Sin from coming forth, or he is taken out of the way, or so that used to be my thinking. Try this on for size brother. It is the Church with the Holy Spirit working through it that blocks the Man of Sin from coming forth, thus the Church is taken out of the way via the Pre-trib Rapture !! Jesus told Peter, the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church. Thus the Beast {Rome} received the Mortal Wound, which can only be healed after the Church is Raptured. So I have come to see that which is take out of the way as the Church or body of Christ holding back evil via the Holy Spirit working through us. Think of the void on the earth when we are gone. 

As per the "hand off" I don't think so, the Holy Spirit is still the Holy Spirit, remember, Jesus operated via the Holy Spirit when he was on earth. And the Scriptures say Jesus will defeat the Little Horn/Anti-Christ in several places, "Without Hand", meaning he speaks victory and the Holy Spirit obeys the command. The Church being Raptured is what is removed out of the Evil forces way. We turned Rome from a Beast, into a Conveyor belt of Christendom via our blood, that is why there was no Beast {one world Gov. attempt} for 2000 years, Charlemagne and Hitler both tried, but of course failed. I have come to see Daniel 2 as a very informative chapter, and a section I could never get, I seem to have cleared up....You know, the SEED OF MEN passage.

Dan. 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

 

So it is the Fourth Kingdom, the Roman Kingdom {E.U.} that stretches out its temticals on both sides of the Church Age. I used to think the "They shall mingle themselves with the seeds of men" must of been talking about when Satan was cast down to earth, but upon further study I have come to see this as a Prophecy about the European Kings for nigh 2000 years, attempt through Marriage to unify the "Fourth Beast" again, even though they wouldn't call it that, so they tried intermarriage via the Royals, but of course they did not cleave to one another,  God is in control. Others tried via force, but it will not happen until after the Rapture of the Church. 

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Posted (edited)

I see the "mingle themselves with the seed of men" as another occurrence of the same thing in Noah's day. After all, Yeshua told us that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be again at his coming.

For the passage in Daniel to have any meaning, literally and grammatically,  those that mingle themselves with the seed of men have to be something other than the seed of men.  European kings were human. So they don't fit the context.  They may be kings, but they were human men.  Now it could be a repeat of the Genesis 6 event where there was some sexual shenanigans going on that generated abnormal offspring, or it could be of a more technical nature and a manipulation of genetics going on.  I opt for the latter.

And given that it is stated that those who take the mark are condemned, and no indication they can ever be redeemed, it would seem to suggest that this mark idea involves genetic altering of individuals so that they are no longer categorized as human and thus no longer qualify for redemption.. Just like fallen angels are not qualified for redemption.   We are capable of some rather bizarre genetic manipulation today.  It would be naive of us to think that fallen angels bent on messing things up can out do us any day the week in altering genetics as they desire.

The one thing that saved Noah was that he was uncorrupted in his genetics.  The word used regarding Noah is tamiym, which is the same word used to describe an unblemished sacrifice.   Noah and his family's  genetics were unblemished so that they could be the start of the human race again after the flood event.  Just from what we see of Noah later, he sure wasn't a perfect spiritual man.

Edited by OldCoot

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On 5/22/2019 at 6:35 AM, OldCoot said:

You are doing a similar thing that my geology professors did in college.  Circular reasoning.

They would say the rock strata are dated by the fossils contained within them.  But if you asked them to prove the date of the fossils, they would say the date is relative to the rock strata they are found in.  Just go around in circles.

You are doing a similar thing by using a dictionary definition of apostasy to make your point.  But apostasy is an anglicized form of the word apostosia that doesn't have any relation to the meaning of apostosia or aphistemi.  You are allowing a later anglicized word to define itself when the word has no relation to the original it was derived from.

No. If I said, "It's true because it's in the Bible and the Bible is true.", that's circular reasoning. Independent sources confirm the definition of the word that appears in the text and that from the time Paul used it and before. As noted by me several times "apostasia" is the word that appears in 2 Thess 2:3 and is always defined as rebellion, revolt, or defection, from ancient times. Witness:

New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Living Translation
Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. 

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

Berean Literal Bible
No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the apostasy shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction,

New American Standard Bible 
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

King James Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Contemporary English Version
But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear. 

Good News Translation
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until the final Rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears, who is destined to hell. 

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 

International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed. 

NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

New Heart English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed, 

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

New American Standard 1977 
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Jubilee Bible 2000
Let no one deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

King James 2000 Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 

Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

English Revised Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Webster's Bible Translation
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Weymouth New Testament
Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

World English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

(In light of all the other translations this has to mean a departure from the faith)

Young's Literal Translation
let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

But you go ahead and deny the preponderance of evidence of not only the correct definition, but also the common rendering of the text from diverse sources that agree with a single voice.

On 5/22/2019 at 6:35 AM, OldCoot said:

It might have been brought out already but I missed it but the Latin Vulgate (4th century) used "discessio" for apostosia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and discessio has a meaning of a spatial or physical departure not a spiritual one. 

That isn't true. It depends somewhat on the context, and the definition I find is: 

"withdrawal, dispersal", 

https://latin-dictionary.net/definition/18007/discessio-discessionis

discessio f (genitive discessiōnis); third declension

withdrawal

dispersal

separation, division

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/discessio

discessio (genitive discessiōnis) (fem.)

withdrawal

dispersal

separation, division

https://www.wordsense.eu/discessio/

The following links have some interesting examples as well as usage, none of which suggest 'a physical departure from one place to another'.

https://glosbe.com/la/en/discessio

https://glosbe.com/en/la/departure

That's really the problem isn't it? Pretrib must find a physical departure by any means to support the claim. But it just isn't there.

Even the Latin, as near as I can tell, uses abitio, abitus, or itus for a physical departure and discessio as a departure of philosophy, or from a position, as an action on the part of the individual, and does not connote a physical taking away by a third party from one place to go to another. That's what you really need and it just isn't there.

 

On 5/22/2019 at 6:35 AM, OldCoot said:

I realize that if 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has in mind the spatial / physical departure of the redeemed before the antichrist can be revealed, it is as Dr. Andy Woods has stated.... "game, set, match" for the pre-trib position. And that would explain why there are some who will fight with their last breath to deny that a physical departure or rapture is in view in that passage.    

No one denies there is a physical departure in view in this passage of 2 Thess 2:1-7. What Pretrib does is take one word and build a doctrine upon an ill defined term, a single term, ignoring all other evidence in the whole of the Word. If the Pretrib view is to be taken literally concerning 2 Thess 2:1-7 the departure must take place before the departure; do you see that? In the Pretrib view the gathering from verse 1 cannot happen till the gathering from verse 3 occurs. So either the gathering must take place before the gathering takes place or there are two gatherings. Even Pretrib, for all it's nonsense, would be hard pressed to find two gatherings in scripture at the coming of our Lord.

 

On 5/22/2019 at 6:35 AM, OldCoot said:

But it may just be that simple.  And like the plain, simple message of the Gospel of Messiah is hard for some to swallow, the idea of a early removal of the righteous is hard to swallow. It just doesn't fit the world view that we have to play a role in our redemption and we must prove ourselves worthy.  The basis of every other religion on the planet.

I find this to be pejorative and frankly insulting to all believers. I think it's also arrogant to even suggest such a thing as if the only foundation for a belief in opposition to the one you hold dear is a desire for self abuse and suffering.  Certainly one can prove a point without using denigration and thinly veiled ad hominems as part of their arsenal.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Diaste said:

No one denies there is a physical departure in view in this passage of 2 Thess 2:1-7. What Pretrib does is take one word and build a doctrine upon an ill defined term, a single term, ignoring all other evidence in the whole of the Word.

And that would be untrue.  Actually, pre-trib folks like me follow the Torah requirement that for any matter (doctrine) to be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of at least two witnesses.  And the Berean's in Acts 17 gave us the example of how that is applied... any doctrine must have confirmation in both OT and NT (two witnesses) or it does not meet the evidentiary requirement.   There is ample evidence for a pre-trib removal of the righteous from the OT, not just the NT.  So this idea that pre-trib folks are cherry picking one verse and building a doctrine is untrue.  I actually like using the OT to make the case more often than the NT.   To me, 2 Thessalonians 2 is just another example. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I find this to be pejorative and frankly insulting to all believers. I think it's also arrogant to even suggest such a thing as if the only foundation for a belief in opposition to the one you hold dear is a desire for self abuse and suffering.

Well it is true.  For instance the doctrine of Purgatory held by some.   That is a works righteousness gig.  There are those who hold the doctrine that one has to be immersion baptized or they cannot be saved.  Again, a works righteousness gig.  There are a myriad of doctrines floating around in various "christian" circles that justification is by faith in Yeshua PLUS something else.  They seem to have to add something to the plain, simple gospel message.  I have been a lot of places on the world and seen a lot of other religions up close.  The one thing that unites the majority of them is the idea that you have to work toward something to achieve the pinnacle of what that belief system teaches.  And the idea of a plain, simple gospel of justification by faith in Yeshua alone just doesn't fit into that world view, and yes, is offensive. 

And likewise, some idea that is simple and plain like the early removal of the righteous might not fit in other folks world view in light of the above.  One thing that seems to stand out in many mid, pre-wrath, and post trip arguments is the underlying concept that one must endure these things to "prove" themselves to be worthy.  To separate the "true" believers from the "faux" believers.  That is a works righteousness mindset also.  

 

I could pile on all the English translations that show "departure" / "a departing" in their translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.  Tyndale, Wuest, Geneva Bible, etc.  Lots of them. It is noteworthy you went to all that trouble to post a bunch that don't, there is ample evidence that prior to the KJV / Rheims bibles, most English translators did not see apostasy as the translation, but a departure.  Apostosia and the verb equivalent aphistemi, can both have in view a spatial departure.  And without a solid reference to what is being departed from, it is taking liberties not provided in the text to assume that a departure spiritually and not physically / spatially is in view.    But to meet the middle ground, I generally state that both could be in view.  After all, many prophecies have multiple applications.

Edited by OldCoot

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On 5/25/2019 at 9:54 AM, OldCoot said:

And that would be untrue.  Actually, pre-trib folks like me follow the Torah requirement that for any matter (doctrine) to be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of at least two witnesses. 

Except for when I tried to quote two examples used by Jesus- you made the same speech about not being qualified...Jesus?

JESUS gave two examples from the Torah. Noah AND Lot.

In both cases the people of God were NOT delivered..."until the day", "the same day" that the judgment of God came down from above.  "Even thus shall it when the Son of Man is revealed"

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Except for when I tried to quote two examples used by Jesus- you made the same speech about not being qualified...Jesus?

JESUS gave two examples from the Torah. Noah AND Lot.

In both cases the people of God were NOT delivered..."until the day", "the same day" that the judgment of God came down from above.  "Even thus shall it when the Son of Man is revealed"

If the Torah is no longer relevant then, please explain why it will be during the Millennial kingdom that those who do not come to observe the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.   And how is it that Ezekiel states clearly in minute detail of the temple that is during the time the Lord reigns on the earth and there will be sacrifices that go on.

The example of the Torah I gave regarding what one would do if guilty of manslaughter (unintentional murder) and how it equates to how we are before Yeshua is a valid application of what the Torah was teaching us about Messiah. 

No worries.  I am confident that there will be classes in the Millennial kingdom that will teach these things.  And free of charge! 

Folks like you love to get all melodramatic.  A speech?  Was I on YouTube that you saw and heard me talk about this?  I just expounded in writing.  That is hardly a "speech".   I had speaking presentation in college and I think I know the difference between a written argument and an oral argument (speech).

Edited by OldCoot

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22 hours ago, OldCoot said:

If the Torah is no longer relevant then, please explain why it will be during the Millennial kingdom that those who do not come to observe the feast of tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.   And how is it that Ezekiel states clearly in minute detail of the temple that is during the time the Lord reigns on the earth and there will be sacrifices that go on.

The example of the Torah I gave regarding what one would do if guilty of manslaughter (unintentional murder) and how it equates to how we are before Yeshua is a valid application of what the Torah was teaching us about Messiah. 

No worries.  I am confident that there will be classes in the Millennial kingdom that will teach these things.  And free of charge! 

Folks like you love to get all melodramatic.  A speech?  Was I on YouTube that you saw and heard me talk about this?  I just expounded in writing.  That is hardly a "speech".   I had speaking presentation in college and I think I know the difference between a written argument and an oral argument (speech).

Hi Coot,

I haven't made any references to the Torah being irrelevant, etc. I cannot understand why you make such an assertion I Quoted Jesus, quoting the record in Genesis (which you are staying away from) pertaining to prophecies in the future regarding the second coming/rapture issues. You are going off topic for some reason. And yes the previous time I brought it up you lectured me about not having two witnesses, then declared "case closed". 

Please address in detail the things Jesus said about Noah and Lot in relation to "when the Son of Man is revealed".

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