Creation

[one.opinion]

1 minute ago, Abdicate said:

meh - evolution is evilution and a complete fabrication. Period.

It’s fine if you want to believe that, you might just want to learn enough so that you don’t use false statements when arguing against it.

[one.opinion]

15 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

The fact I don't believe in it already labels me as an ignorant red-neck.

I can’t deny that there are many atheists that would make that assumption. However, I know far too many intelligent people that are young earth creationists to make that mistake. I just thought you would probably want to avoid false statements, that’s all.

[one.opinion]

23 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Actually, the main point would be that one cannot believe in evolution, and God-created life at the same time.  The two are 100% contradictory.

I don’t accept the same version of evolution as an atheist does. I believe God created living things through evolution. But, God is still THE Creator.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, one.opinion said:

The argument that we must look at the “style” of Genesis 1-3 to determine what it actually means works against what you intend.

And that is a bad argument and not how we determine what the text means.

Quote

The “style” that contains talking animals and supernatural fruit is purely fictional fantasy. And neither you nor I accept that. This argument is fruitless (pun intended this time).

You should have no more problem with a talking serpent than you should with Jesus calming the storm, raising the dead, or a talking donkey in the story of Balaam.   Those are not allegories or fantasy. 

The fruit was not supernatural, though.  The fall of man was the result of Adam's disobedience, not the fruit itself.   There is nothing fictional at all about the story and the NT makes reference to the creation and fall of man as history, not as fiction.

  Genesis 1-3 is the basis and rationale for the Gospel and the work of Jesus on the cross.  There is nothing fictional about Gen. 1-3.   You have a supernatural environment in a world where sin did not exist.   

 

Quote

*sigh* Let’s think critically about this. What possible motive would I have for making up what I believe? Do you think I make up my beliefs to try to appease you in some way? When have I ever given you the impression that I would stoop to such a thing?

I never said you made anything up.    I said that you espouse the "right" things up front, but when we get underneath the surface of what you claim to believe, we find a bizarre array of beliefs that really amount to denying the authority of the Bible.

 

Quote

I tell you what I believe because we share central core doctrine. And since we do (and you can’t accurately dispute it), then that suggests that our difference in interpretation is not as meaningful as you believe.

We don't share as much central doctrine as you might think.  It's kind of like when you have a cult or church that teaches false doctrine, they have a statement of faith on their website that appears to be orthodox and holds to the basics of the Christian faith.    But when you get beyond that and you look at their theology on a deeper level, you find that they have all kinds of errant beliefs.  

Prosperity and name-it-and-claim-it preachers believe the Bible is God's word, and they believe all kinds of good things, but they mix in just enough truth to make the error look plausible. Their hermeneutics are a train wreck, and when you see their theology up close, you find all kinds of problems.  So simply rattling off a list of beliefs isn't sufficient to prove that one truly believes what the Bible says.

And that is what I notice with your theology.   You claim all of the right things, as if that is supposed to be enough, but when we get deeper into your theology, you have all kinds of garbage where you have to muddy the waters on what the Bible means because the primary authority for you isn't the Bible, it's evolution/science and you have to modify the Bible in order to accommodate Evolution.    Evolution is true for you, but the Bible, as written, doesn't make room for evolution, so you have to modify Scripture and introduce foreign ideas into how it is read in order to force it to fit the evolutionary model. 

 

Quote

Again, believing in a non-literal interpretation does NOT mean believing the Bible is in error. I believe in a non-literal interpretation BECAUSE I believe the Bible is without error.

If that were true, you would not have to modify the Bible to fit the evolutionary narrative and you could accept the Bible as written instead of calling part of it fictional fantasy.    You don't treat the Bible as inerrant, or infallible.  So it does not really appear that you view the Bible as  being without error.

The myth in all of this is "non-literal interpretation."   There is no such thing.   That concept was invented just for the Bible.  We don't interpret ANY text "non-literally."  Non-literal interpretation is an oxymoron.   We interpret figurative devices, but we interpret them literally to find the literal meaning they are communicating.   

[one.opinion]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

And that is a bad argument and not how we determine what the text means.

Then why were you making such an effort to explain why we needed to look at literary style to determine the meaning of the passage?

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

We interpret figurative devices, but we interpret them literally to find the literal meaning they are communicating.

Yes, that’s why I find it so interesting that you and I (and others) can have such different views on the timeline, but have very similar understandings of what the core theology is. I believe a reasonable conclusion would be that Genesis 1-3 was never meant to be a historical account.

I understand the concern about how my different interpretation of the passage might be a sign of underlying theological error. 

“What I mean is that you know the "right" things you are supposed to say you believe.”

Your implication by using the words “are supposed to say” is clearly that I do not truly believe them. I assure you that I do. If you are truly curious about my theology, then I invite you to ask what I believe, rather than assume there must be something cult-level-wrong somewhere. Please try this - list what you feel is core doctrinal truth to the Christian faith and ask me to agree or disagree. I know that is much easier and simpler to just assume the worst, but I would appreciate the effort.

[one.opinion]

9 hours ago, Abdicate said:

I appreciate that. I really do. Thanks.

I probably should have mentioned this, but my own beloved mother is one of those very intelligent people!

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, one.opinion said:

I probably should have mentioned this, but my own beloved mother is one of those very intelligent people!

I just wanted to communicate this Biblical truth in comment to this:
If we weigh the facts of everything God has said to us in His Word we come up with this- God Who 'IS' without boundary and ability has told us that we have beginning and how that beginning took place and that we have ending or beginning with Him in the eternal state -> here is where it is important to reason with God on this- everything now will be removed from that eternal state

Rev 21:4

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
This will be everything as to anything pertaining to the creation that God has done... fulfilling these verses

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

1 Cor 2:6-9

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, ->nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
KJV
SO everything we have in a value system of smarter not as smart, strong weak, pretty ugly, fat skinny, color shape, gold silver precious jewels hay wood stubble, all these things will be gone as far as design and existence... I know I know you say that's everything what become of all - gone! We have taken God and made Him to be dependent upon what He has created: the laws governing, the things themselves all things (FORMER) are gone... Now where are we now in knowing this will be then? It should help us to disconnect to the importance of a thing now knowing God 'IS' not keeping it- for no one sets something aside for fire that any value remains in that which is to be burnt up.... It is why John has said 

1 John 2:15

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
KJV

It certainly can be understood why this is so because only that which is everlasting 'IS' The Essence of God with God and that which God places away from Him is the everlasting punishment of rejecting God and worshipping the thing that is no longer there.... You will undoubtedly say well what is to build upon- it 'IS' the faith once delivered to the saints … understanding the faith is built upon a hope that is not seen! This then becomes the pure and undefiled religion...

2 Tim 2:2-13

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
The result of the denial is to turn back to the immediate of idolatry! Loving the created thing more than the Creator...

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV

Do not let yourselves be motivated by the garbage of that which God 'IS' not keeping but the motivation of that which is promised and you will not fail in The Will of God for you...

Edited November 17, 2018 by enoob57

[one.opinion]

On 11/17/2018 at 9:49 AM, enoob57 said:

I just wanted to communicate this Biblical truth in comment to this:
If we weigh the facts of everything God has said to us in His Word we come up with this- God Who 'IS' without boundary and ability has told us that we have beginning and how that beginning took place and that we have ending or beginning with Him in the eternal state -> here is where it is important to reason with God on this- everything now will be removed from that eternal state

Rev 21:4

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
This will be everything as to anything pertaining to the creation that God has done... fulfilling these verses

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

1 Cor 2:6-9

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, ->nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
KJV
SO everything we have in a value system of smarter not as smart, strong weak, pretty ugly, fat skinny, color shape, gold silver precious jewels hay wood stubble, all these things will be gone as far as design and existence... I know I know you say that's everything what become of all - gone! We have taken God and made Him to be dependent upon what He has created: the laws governing, the things themselves all things (FORMER) are gone... Now where are we now in knowing this will be then? It should help us to disconnect to the importance of a thing now knowing God 'IS' not keeping it- for no one sets something aside for fire that any value remains in that which is to be burnt up.... It is why John has said 

1 John 2:15

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
KJV

It certainly can be understood why this is so because only that which is everlasting 'IS' The Essence of God with God and that which God places away from Him is the everlasting punishment of rejecting God and worshipping the thing that is no longer there.... You will undoubtedly say well what is to build upon- it 'IS' the faith once delivered to the saints … understanding the faith is built upon a hope that is not seen! This then becomes the pure and undefiled religion...

2 Tim 2:2-13

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
The result of the denial is to turn back to the immediate of idolatry! Loving the created thing more than the Creator...

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV

Do not let yourselves be motivated by the garbage of that which God 'IS' not keeping but the motivation of that which is promised and you will not fail in The Will of God for you...

My apologies, but I really don’t understand what your point is in this post.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, one.opinion said:

My apologies, but I really don’t understand what your point is in this post.

By understanding the overall intent of God and His people in regards to the that which we have began in sets free the mind not to be entangled in the unimportant.... 

[FresnoJoe]

On 11/17/2018 at 7:51 AM, one.opinion said:

Then why were you making such an effort to explain why we needed to look at literary style to determine the meaning of the passage?

Yes, that’s why I find it so interesting that you and I (and others) can have such different views on the timeline, but have very similar understandings of what the core theology is. I believe a reasonable conclusion would be that Genesis 1-3 was never meant to be a historical account.

I understand the concern about how my different interpretation of the passage might be a sign of underlying theological error. 

“What I mean is that you know the "right" things you are supposed to say you believe.”

Your implication by using the words “are supposed to say” is clearly that I do not truly believe them. I assure you that I do. If you are truly curious about my theology, then I invite you to ask what I believe, rather than assume there must be something cult-level-wrong somewhere. Please try this - list what you feel is core doctrinal truth to the Christian faith and ask me to agree or disagree. I know that is much easier and simpler to just assume the worst, but I would appreciate the effort.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 7:53 AM, one.opinion said:

I probably should have mentioned this, but my own beloved mother is one of those very intelligent people!

 

On 11/17/2018 at 9:29 AM, Abdicate said:

It wouldn't have mattered. The way I look at it, even if I were the smartest person on the planet, if I reject God's work, I'm still a fool.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 9:49 AM, enoob57 said:

I just wanted to communicate this Biblical truth in comment to this:
If we weigh the facts of everything God has said to us in His Word we come up with this- God Who 'IS' without boundary and ability has told us that we have beginning and how that beginning took place and that we have ending or beginning with Him in the eternal state -> here is where it is important to reason with God on this- everything now will be removed from that eternal state

Rev 21:4

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV
This will be everything as to anything pertaining to the creation that God has done... fulfilling these verses

1 Cor 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

1 Cor 2:6-9

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, ->nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
KJV
SO everything we have in a value system of smarter not as smart, strong weak, pretty ugly, fat skinny, color shape, gold silver precious jewels hay wood stubble, all these things will be gone as far as design and existence... I know I know you say that's everything what become of all - gone! We have taken God and made Him to be dependent upon what He has created: the laws governing, the things themselves all things (FORMER) are gone... Now where are we now in knowing this will be then? It should help us to disconnect to the importance of a thing now knowing God 'IS' not keeping it- for no one sets something aside for fire that any value remains in that which is to be burnt up.... It is why John has said 

1 John 2:15

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
KJV

It certainly can be understood why this is so because only that which is everlasting 'IS' The Essence of God with God and that which God places away from Him is the everlasting punishment of rejecting God and worshipping the thing that is no longer there.... You will undoubtedly say well what is to build upon- it 'IS' the faith once delivered to the saints … understanding the faith is built upon a hope that is not seen! This then becomes the pure and undefiled religion...

2 Tim 2:2-13

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
The result of the denial is to turn back to the immediate of idolatry! Loving the created thing more than the Creator...

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
KJV

Do not let yourselves be motivated by the garbage of that which God 'IS' not keeping but the motivation of that which is promised and you will not fail in The Will of God for you...

 

On 11/17/2018 at 10:50 AM, Abdicate said:

While reading your comment, this verse came to mind:

Isaiah 44:20
He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

 

2 hours ago, one.opinion said:

My apologies, but I really don’t understand what your point is in this post.

 

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

By understanding the overall intent of God and His people in regards to the that which we have began in sets free the mind not to be entangled in the unimportant.... 

Folk

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant or livestock, nor the foreigner within your gates. 

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy. Exodus 20:8-11 (Berean Study Bible}

Won't Get It

And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” Isaiah 29:11-12 (English Standard Version)

Without The Might Holy Ghost 

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life. John 6:63 (New International Version)
~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament