I am the vine, ye are the branches:

[Willa]

Abiding in Christ produces the fruit of the Spirit--

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness, Gal 5:23  Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].

  Before we click the post button we all need to do an attitude check:  are those virtues evident in my post?

[discipler777]

12 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

I apologize for offending. I have been trolled by works righteousness proponents across numerous topics this week and find my patience for a litany of gospel verses taken out of context to be zero.

.

Are you referring to this troll.? .......

 

  On 12/14/2018 at 1:00 AM, discipler777 said:

.

  19 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

  On 12/13/2018 at 2:50 PM, discipler777 said:

.

Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law, ....... but once saved,should they keep bearing the good works of the Law/Word/commandments or the evil-works of the flesh(ROMANS.6:1-2).? Christians who keep on bearing the evil-works of the flesh willfully and unrepentantly for whatever reasons, will not inherit the kingdom of God(GALATIANS.5:19-21, MATTHEW.7:15-23). Know them by their fruits/works.

Check out the Scripture I have given and don't add any of your "once saved always saved" to it. When you stand before your Maker, He will ask you.... "What did you do with My Gospel.?" Be prepared. .......

.

MATTHEW.12:33-37 (NKJV) = A Tree Known by Its Fruit

33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law, ....... but once saved,

 

please notice the “ yes.....but”    The eternal refrain of the Legalists/ Judaizer......there are a few variations,  but it’s basically  “Why Yes! Of course Jesus saves! B U T........( insert your pet work here) It’s like Dr.Phil says, you make a statement and then add “ but” to say what you REALLY mean.Here is what I truly mean—— ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.......no “ buts” attached.

.

JOHN.3:18-21 (NKJV) = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

.

  14 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

  19 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law, ....... but once saved,should they keep bearing the good works of the Law/Word/commandments or the evil-works of the flesh(ROMANS.6:1-2).? Christians who keep on bearing the evil-works of the flesh willfully and unrepentantly for whatever reasons, will not inherit the kingdom of God(GALATIANS.5:19-21, MATTHEW.7:15-23). Know them by their fruits/works.

Check out the Scripture I have given and don't add any of your "once saved always saved" to it. When you stand before your Maker, He will ask you.... "What did you do with My Gospel.?" Be prepared.

 

please notice the “ yes.....but”    The eternal refrain of the Legalists/ Judaizer......there are a few variations,  but it’s basically  “Why Yes! Of course Jesus saves! B U T........( insert your pet work here) It’s like Dr.Phil says, you make a statement and then add “ but” to say what you REALLY mean.Here is what I truly mean—— ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.......no “ buts” attached.

 

 

Great job analyzing the soteriological difference. This is a different view altogether than grace. It is a one-time grace followed by a lifetime of works. Galatians 3 is a knockdown argument against this view of grace/works salvation.

Paul describes those that hold this view, "Bewitched," "Foolish," and "Ignorant." 

Further the individuals defend this false view by taking the passages out of the context of the Gospel and transporting it into the style of an epistle as if Jesus were answering a question about how salvation works. How is it that Peter and John do not hold this view? We need to refuse to let people ignore the text that deals with this very question of maintaining our salvation by works (which is Gal. 3) and reply with passages that have nothing to do with that context. 

Discipler 777 is using this fallacious method, call him on it. 

.

ROMANS.5 & 6 (NKJV) = 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

.

EPHESIANS.2:8-9 =  8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

.

HEBREWS.10:26-31 = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

.

GALATIANS.5:19-21 = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

.

Edited 14 hours ago by discipler777

 

 

 

  11 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Galatians 3:1-3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. ² Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? ³ Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by^[a] the flesh?

 

Interpret the unclear in light of the clear. The passages above are about Christians who are not producing good works who nevertheless are saved from damnation and about those who try and live based on good works after they are saved. They need to be dealt with in order to make your view cogent. In fact not just cogent but Christian. This is an essential doctrine. Paul was infuriated by "Saved by grace, sanctified by works." This passage receives some of the strongest language anywhere in Paul's epistles. 

.

GALATIANS.5:1-6 & 13-15 & 19-21 (NKJV) = Christian Liberty

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. ...

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! ...

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

.

ACTS.15:23-29 = 23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

.

Like I said before, Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law.

The events of ACTS.15 was the background for Paul's vehemence at GAL.3 & 5 against the requirement for new Gentile Christians(GC) to be circumcised, eat only kosher foods and keep other burdensome or non-essential laws of God in order to be accepted as Christians in the Church because the Law does not save. But Paul did not say that GC could use their liberty from the Law wrt salvation, to go and commit willful sins or works of the flesh unrepentantly. ACTS.15:29 confirms his statement at GAL.5:13, ie he agreed at the Jerusalem Council that new GC were still required to keep 4 easy or non-burdensome laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, foods/things offered to idols, strangled animal sacrifice and sexual immorality, in order for them to do well(= not be unwell), and not in order to be saved.

To continue to do well, the new GC should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome or essential laws, especially moral laws, eg the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17. Otherwise, they would be cursed by God with a sad, non-peaceful, terror-filled and short life on earth for breaking His non-burdensome or essential laws, even though they may still be saved as long as they still have faith in Jesus Christ, ie not lose faith(JOB.2:9), not depart from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1), not deny the faith(MATTHEW.10:33), etc.

What was not covered by ACTS.15 is the further question, what if GC do go and commit willful sins or works of the flesh unrepentantly for whatever reasons.? This was covered by many Scripture - GALATIANS.5:19-21 above, MATTHEW.7:15-23, JOHN.14:15-24 & 15:1-9(= Christ not abiding in unrepentant sinners), REVELATION.22:12-17, 1CORINTHIANS,6:9-11, etc = they will likely not inherit the kingdom of God/heaven, on top of having to suffer for their unrepented willful sins or works of the flesh. God is not mocked.

.

 

•  

Edited December 14, 2018 by discipler777

[discipler777]

10 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

10 hours ago, George said:

Please report them!  Seriously -- report them, so we can deal with them.    

Report them for what, dumping pages of unrelated Biblical texts out of context, over and over? Hardly seems reportable. 

.

Were the quoted Bible texts or Word of God really dumped out of context.?  I think it was more like ....... "Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”"(ACTS.9:5). 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

To those that endeavor to “ rightly divide the Word of God” and “ prove themselves to be good students of the Word” it is wise to remember two rules of thumb to refute Legalists who point to verses like this to “prove” that on can lose his Salvation.The verses they use are either not addressing The Body of Christ or they are taken out of context .These verses are being spoken to Believers. The peope Paul is talking about are not Believers. Notice he says “THoSE” that do such things.He is talking about an entirely different group of people—-people who have not put their faith in Christ alone to save them.As we should all know by now, Jesus has promised to not deny ANYBODY who comes to Him in Repentance towards God and faith in himself.

Furthermore,the very next chapter discusses the way we are to treat fellow  Believers that have been overtaken in sin.They are habitual sinners, caught up in the very sins that Paul just discussed.He makes no mention of their losing  their Salvation. They are merely to be gently restored with kindness and compassion by the ones that that discovered their short- fallings. Especially seeing as to how the person doing the restoring may well be the one who is guilty the next time.

Wise students should take the trouble to see WHO is being talked about and the CONTEXT of the verse.That keeps us from taking one verse and using it to form a doctrine that violates hundreds of clear verses that can not be debated by those with serious minds.

 

 

[Uber Genius]

13 hours ago, Gary Lee said:

Saved by grace. In faith. Only! Evidenced by works. Jas 2:21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac h

This is my view as well. But there are churches that teach legalism. My goal was to poison the wells to people misrepresenting the following verse to the I am the vine passage. But people didn't like my representation of legalism as heresy. So I am trying a kinder, gentler, rhetorical method.

[Sower]

18 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

This is my view as well. But there are churches that teach legalism. My goal was to poison the wells to people misrepresenting the following verse to the I am the vine passage. But people didn't like my representation of legalism as heresy. So I am trying a kinder, gentler, rhetorical method.

     Understood.   

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"

 

[discipler777]

2 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

My goal was to poison the wells to people misrepresenting the following verse to the I am the vine passage.

Did you achieve your goal or did you score an own goal.?

.

Quote

A much-abused verse by the "Saved by grace, perfected by works," heretics.

2 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

But people didn't like my representation of legalism as heresy.

You might have misrepresented things as Legalism and others as Legalists. Strictly speaking, legalism means telling Christians that they must keep this law or that law, in order to be saved or remain saved, as were done by the Judaizers at ACTS.15:24, ie Gentile Christians must be circumcised and keep all of Moses Law like the Jews and Jewish Christians. This is plainly wrong or in error because Christians are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law.

OTOH, New Testament Scripture everywhere states that Christians, once saved by faith/grace, are not to go and keep on sinning or doing the evil works of the flesh willfully and unrepentantly because they should be abiding in Christ(= the Word) to walk in the Spirit and produce the good works/fruits of the Spirit. The good works/fruits of the Spirit produce peace, love, joy, etc = the "will do well"  of ACTS.15:29. The good works of the Spirit required by ACTS.15:28-29 were for the Gentile Christians to do well in life, and not in order for them to be saved because they had already been saved by faith in Jesus Christ. 

But, if a once-saved Christian still keeps on doing the evil works of the flesh or sinning willfully and unrepentantly, the Spirit of Christ is not really abiding in him/her. The wages of sins/evil-works are death and the judgment/curses of God  = it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God = such willful and unrepentant sinning Christians will suffer for their willful sins and will likely curse God/Jesus and die = lost faith = lost salvation = will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If God could make sure that no one was able to snatch the 11 Apostles out of His hand, He can also make sure that everyone is able to snatch unrepentant and willful sinning Christians  out of His hand, like the son of perdition/hell(= Judas Iscariot).

Once saved is not always saved. .......

.

REVELATION.2:10 (NKJV) =  10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

.

MATTHEW.24:9-14 = 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

.

Edited December 14, 2018 by discipler777

[Uber Genius]

10 hours ago, discipler777 said:

.

Are you referring to this troll.? .......

 

  On 12/14/2018 at 1:00 AM, discipler777 said:

.

  19 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

  On 12/13/2018 at 2:50 PM, discipler777 said:

.

Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law, ....... but once saved,should they keep bearing the good works of the Law/Word/commandments or the evil-works of the flesh(ROMANS.6:1-2).? Christians who keep on bearing the evil-works of the flesh willfully and unrepentantly for whatever reasons, will not inherit the kingdom of God(GALATIANS.5:19-21, MATTHEW.7:15-23). Know them by their fruits/works.

Check out the Scripture I have given and don't add any of your "once saved always saved" to it. When you stand before your Maker, He will ask you.... "What did you do with My Gospel.?" Be prepared. .......

.

MATTHEW.12:33-37 (NKJV) = A Tree Known by Its Fruit

33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law, ....... but once saved,

 

please notice the “ yes.....but”    The eternal refrain of the Legalists/ Judaizer......there are a few variations,  but it’s basically  “Why Yes! Of course Jesus saves! B U T........( insert your pet work here) It’s like Dr.Phil says, you make a statement and then add “ but” to say what you REALLY mean.Here is what I truly mean—— ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.......no “ buts” attached.

.

JOHN.3:18-21 (NKJV) = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

•  

.

  14 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

  19 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law, ....... but once saved,should they keep bearing the good works of the Law/Word/commandments or the evil-works of the flesh(ROMANS.6:1-2).? Christians who keep on bearing the evil-works of the flesh willfully and unrepentantly for whatever reasons, will not inherit the kingdom of God(GALATIANS.5:19-21, MATTHEW.7:15-23). Know them by their fruits/works.

Check out the Scripture I have given and don't add any of your "once saved always saved" to it. When you stand before your Maker, He will ask you.... "What did you do with My Gospel.?" Be prepared.

 

please notice the “ yes.....but”    The eternal refrain of the Legalists/ Judaizer......there are a few variations,  but it’s basically  “Why Yes! Of course Jesus saves! B U T........( insert your pet work here) It’s like Dr.Phil says, you make a statement and then add “ but” to say what you REALLY mean.Here is what I truly mean—— ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.......no “ buts” attached.

 

 

Great job analyzing the soteriological difference. This is a different view altogether than grace. It is a one-time grace followed by a lifetime of works. Galatians 3 is a knockdown argument against this view of grace/works salvation.

Paul describes those that hold this view, "Bewitched," "Foolish," and "Ignorant." 

Further the individuals defend this false view by taking the passages out of the context of the Gospel and transporting it into the style of an epistle as if Jesus were answering a question about how salvation works. How is it that Peter and John do not hold this view? We need to refuse to let people ignore the text that deals with this very question of maintaining our salvation by works (which is Gal. 3) and reply with passages that have nothing to do with that context. 

Discipler 777 is using this fallacious method, call him on it. 

.

ROMANS.5 & 6 (NKJV) = 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

.

EPHESIANS.2:8-9 =  8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

.

HEBREWS.10:26-31 = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

.

GALATIANS.5:19-21 = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

.

Edited 14 hours ago by discipler777

 

 

 

  11 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Galatians 3:1-3

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. ² Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? ³ Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by^[a] the flesh?

 

Interpret the unclear in light of the clear. The passages above are about Christians who are not producing good works who nevertheless are saved from damnation and about those who try and live based on good works after they are saved. They need to be dealt with in order to make your view cogent. In fact not just cogent but Christian. This is an essential doctrine. Paul was infuriated by "Saved by grace, sanctified by works." This passage receives some of the strongest language anywhere in Paul's epistles. 

.

GALATIANS.5:1-6 & 13-15 & 19-21 (NKJV) = Christian Liberty

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. ...

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! ...

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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ACTS.15:23-29 = 23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

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Like I said before, Yes, Christians are saved solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the good works of the Law.

The events of ACTS.15 was the background for Paul's vehemence at GAL.3 & 5 against the requirement for new Gentile Christians(GC) to be circumcised, eat only kosher foods and keep other burdensome or non-essential laws of God in order to be accepted as Christians in the Church because the Law does not save. But Paul did not say that GC could use their liberty from the Law wrt salvation, to go and commit willful sins or works of the flesh unrepentantly. ACTS.15:29 confirms his statement at GAL.5:13, ie he agreed at the Jerusalem Council that new GC were still required to keep 4 easy or non-burdensome laws of Moses, ie avoid eating blood, foods/things offered to idols, strangled animal sacrifice and sexual immorality, in order for them to do well(= not be unwell), and not in order to be saved.

To continue to do well, the new GC should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome or essential laws, especially moral laws, eg the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17. Otherwise, they would be cursed by God with a sad, non-peaceful, terror-filled and short life on earth for breaking His non-burdensome or essential laws, even though they may still be saved as long as they still have faith in Jesus Christ, ie not lose faith(JOB.2:9), not depart from the faith(1TIMOTHY.4:1), not deny the faith(MATTHEW.10:33), etc.

What was not covered by ACTS.15 is the further question, what if GC do go and commit willful sins or works of the flesh unrepentantly for whatever reasons.? This was covered by many Scripture - GALATIANS.5:19-21 above, MATTHEW.7:15-23, JOHN.14:15-24 & 15:1-9(= Christ not abiding in unrepentant sinners), REVELATION.22:12-17, 1CORINTHIANS,6:9-11, etc = they will likely not inherit the kingdom of God/heaven, on top of having to suffer for their unrepented willful sins or works of the flesh. God is not mocked.

.

Yes. 

 

That is correct. 

 

tossing out random verses leads to a Bible that is filled with contradictions. It violates several Biblical Interpretive maxims. 

 

1. The Bible is a work of progressive revelation. Old is revealed in the New Testament, Jesus ministry (still under the Old Covenant) is interpreted in light of the New Covenant, most concisely unfolded in Galatians, more fully expounded in Romans.  

   "The Bible Would Seem Contradictory If Progressive Revelation Is Not Understood

   If one does not recognize the progressive nature of God's revelation to humankind then they will be forced to admit contradictions in Scripture. There are a number of passages that are at odds with each other if not understood in their historical setting. " for more see: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1203.cfm
2. Paul writes about a secret hidden from both Old Testament authors and NOT REVEALED in the Gospels! So to pick verses out of the gospels and suggest they are revelations about the church age and the New Covenant needs some justification. On their face they would seem to be vestiges of teachings arising from the Old Covenant. For more see Jesus' sermon on the mount. Do we really expect that Matt 5:48 is Jesus' version of salvation? 
3. Cherry Picking the data always leads to misrepresentations of the real world. We are looking for the view that best explains the data we have. We need to objectively look at those data. Where we can provide summary data is where the topic of the book and the paragraph(s) have directly to do with how people maintain their Christianity. Namely, if we find a passage that is not just in the NT but is about the New Covenant, and further that its subject matter is addressed to Christians about how they maintain their Christianity via Faith or Works, then we can indeed summarize. I have provided such evidence. 
4. So if we eliminate OT texts as under the Old Covenant and NT text talking about the Old Covenant we will be left with NT texts from Acts-Revelation. Further Gal, Roms. find the Law as being a tudor leading us to Christ. Your appeals to Hebrews are important data in your favor. They are revealing New Covenant truths and they are paragraph or multiple paragraph-length works where the context is about maintaining one's salvation. James, in Chap 2 would also fit this bill. We will have to cover the meaning of Life by the Spirit as opposed to Life by the Flesh.  
5. My purpose is not to shut your comments down via ad hominem. It is to get you and others to recognize that Paul considered your teaching false. I have responded to your arguments and premises with counter-argument and premises. My goal is to help you and other engage the scriptures in a way their audience would have understood them, as theological ideas related in themes made up of paragraphs, made up of sentences. Further, interpreting the unclear by the clear. And finally with a view to progressive revelation.

That said, on a personal note, I have been convinced by George and others that my rhetorical style can be misperceived as attacking the man. Further I recognize that I have set a condescending tone that shuts down conversation and is not Christ-like. I apologize for my tone and am willing to engage in a more Christ-like manner if you are able to accept my apology.  

•  

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Uber Genius

[discipler777]

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33 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

So if we eliminate OT texts as under the Old Covenant and NT text taking from the Old Covenant we will find the Law as being a tudor leading us to Christ. Further we find that it is life by the Spirit as opposed to life by the Flesh that accomplishes our maintenance. Now that is a worthy topic.

HEBREWS.8:7-13 (NKJV) = A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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The OT Law may not save Christians from hell but it is vital for their remaining Spirit-led life on earth, after being saved by faith in Jesus Christ, ie in order "to do well" on earth before their death, resurrection/rapture and inheritance of the kingdom of heaven. For this vital earthly purpose, ACTS.15:24-29 required new Gentile Christians to keep 4 non-burdensome or essential laws of God or OT laws, ie avoid eating blood, foods/things offered to idols, strangled animal sacrifice and sexual immorality. Otherwise, they will not do well or be unwell, eg 1CORINTHIANS.11:30.

It is quite common sense that people should not break the law, eg not commit murder, rape, robbery, cheating, perjury, etc.

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33 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

That said, I have been convinced by George and others that my rhetorical style can be misperceived as attacking the man. Further I recognize that I have set a condescending tone that shuts down conversation and is not Christ-like. I apologize for my tone and am willing to engage in a more Christ-like manner if you are able to accept my apology.

Apology accepted. ....... Please stop calling me a troll. 

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Edited December 14, 2018 by discipler777

[Uber Genius]

1 hour ago, discipler777 said:

OT Law may not save Christians from hell but it is vital for their remaining Spirit-led life on earth

So Paul in Galatians uses some drastic language to describe the Law both in relation to salvation and spirit-led life. The Law is tied to the flesh. I have never heard anyone describe the life by the Spirit as "Keeping the OT Law." Help me understand the scholarship that suggests we should understand passages in Gal 3-5 in that way. 

While you combine the two Paul says:

"So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?" Here in the context of the New Covenant description of the relationship of the Law and the Spirit-led life, Paul CONTRASTS THE TWO. 

For him they don't operate together. They are opposed. 

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

"Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith."

"The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,"

Here we have your statement that "OT Law is vital for their remaining Spirit-led life on earth."

And Paul's text in the same context. 

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law

You, "He only redeemed us for initial salvation, after that event we need to live by the Law."

Since the "Law is not based on faith," and OT Law is vital for Christians remaining Spirit Led" then deductively faith is not vital for Christians remaining Spirit-led. 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Uber Genius