God's sovereign choice

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

When God created Lucifer, do you believe he knew one day he would rebel, or did it take God by surprise?

Your reasoning is flawed ... since you started your premise with the thought that God created iniquity in Lucifer.   I've shown you Scripture that emphatically proves that as a flawed understanding!  Until you come to the source of your reasoning ... that God would create iniquity ... you have a flawed understanding of God!

Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 
Rom 11:34  “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 

[Guest Butero]

2 minutes ago, George said:

Your reasoning is flawed ... since you started your premise with the thought that God created iniquity in Lucifer.   I've shown you Scripture that emphatically proves that as a flawed understanding!  Until you come to the source of your reasoning ... that God would create iniquity ... you have a flawed understanding of God!

Rom 11:33  Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 
Rom 11:34  “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 

Then how did God create Lucifer perfect and was unable to keep him perfect?  Everybody asks those rejecting OSAS don't they believe God has the power to keep them saved?  What about Lucifer?  What about people that get to heaven?  Your video states God uses evil for his purposes, but didn't create it.  

[George]

Just now, Butero said:

Then how did God create Lucifer perfect and was unable to keep him perfect?

God has given FREE-WILL ... He doesn't CHOOSE your path ... He gives you the opportunity to CHOOSE!

Joshua 24:15  And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Butero said:

If God creates someone knowing all they will ever do, how is he not creating them to ultimately destroy them? 

 

Knowing what they will do, and choosing that they do it are two different things.

 

1 hour ago, Butero said:

Look at Judas Iscariot.  God created him knowing that Judas would be the betrayer of the Lord. 

 

Indeed, Judas is a great example to look at in this regard.  Consider this, if you were in his place, and had walked with Jesus, learned from Him directly, and had been loved by Him in the flesh, would you have betrayed Him?  Judas made his own choice because that was what was in his heart, paid in silver.  If someone offered you a billion dollars tomorrow to betray Jesus, would you agree to it?

 

1 hour ago, Butero said:

What about Pharaoh?  God created him knowing he would be the man that would oppose Moses.

 

What made Pharaoh the way he was?  Was it God, or did it have to do with his corruption via power?  Did Pharaoh not believe himself to be a god?  God allowed Pharaoh to rise up, so that His power could be shown to the world.  What a person does with wicked intentions, God can use to His glory, and for His purposes.

We know that scripture tells us, each world leader rises up according to God's will and perfect plan.  Historically we can look back and see the rise of Hitler to power, and what came as a result of the holocaust, a nation reborn.

 

1 hour ago, Butero said:

They do make their own choices, but God created them knowing how they would behave every single day of their lives.  

 

They make their own choices, exactly.  That does not mean that God has not endured them patiently.  What we do not know, are what efforts, and how many attempts God makes to reach an individual before He gives them over to their depravity.

God bless

[George]

41 minutes ago, Butero said:

He created Lucifer with hidden iniquity on the inside. 

We have to start from this very first point ... because it's the very basis of your thought process.  It's the foundation stone of your logic ... which is flawed ... thus your entire reasoning process will be flawed.

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, George said:

God has given FREE-WILL ... He doesn't CHOOSE your path ... He gives you the opportunity to CHOOSE!

Joshua 24:15  And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Apparently, that continues to be true in heaven.  If that is your belief, okay.  

[George]

5 minutes ago, Butero said:

Apparently, that continues to be true in heaven.  If that is your belief, okay.  

... and apparently the angels still had a choice ... and they chose to leave!  Their free will continues to this day!

Jude 1:6  And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

2Pe 2:4  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

[Michael37]

26 minutes ago, Butero said:

Here is something to consider.  If it is just about free will, and the devil created iniquity out of thin air, meaning so could any Christian after getting to heaven.  That means a million years from now, a Christian can rebel and get kicked out of heaven.  Talk about no security!  

Hi Butero, I remember discussing this exact proposition a few years ago. The proposition is that opposition to the will of God is always possible, whether on earth or in heaven, whether in this temporal existence or in eternity. Fortunately we have a very good Scripture to assure us that from Judgment Day no-one in heaven will oppose God.

Eph 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 

Also, it appears from Scriptures in their consistency regarding Lucifer that his rebellion occurred after the six days of Creation, and that prior to this rebellion he was perfect, as indeed was all of God's Creation. That he set himself up to usurp God's authority is known by his dialogue with Eve -"hast God said?"

Eze 28:11-15
(11)  Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
(12)  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
(13)  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(14)  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15)  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

[Guest Butero]

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Butero, I remember discussing this exact proposition a few years ago. The proposition is that opposition to the will of God is always possible, whether on earth or in heaven, whether in this temporal existence or in eternity. Fortunately we have a very good Scripture to assure us that from Judgment Day no-one in heaven will oppose God.

Eph 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 

Also, it appears from Scriptures in their consistency regarding Lucifer that his rebellion occurred after the six days of Creation, and that prior to this rebellion he was perfect, as indeed was all of God's Creation. That he set himself up to usurp God's authority is known by his dialogue with Eve -"hast God said?"

Eze 28:11-15
(11)  Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
(12)  Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
(13)  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
(14)  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15)  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

What difference does it make having a spotless and glorious church starting out if a perfect angel could fall?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Butero said:

When God created Lucifer, do you believe he knew one day he would rebel, or did it take God by surprise?  The video you posted has a man saying God uses demons and evil to accomplish his purposes.  

Here is something to consider.  If it is just about free will, and the devil created iniquity out of thin air, meaning so could any Christian after getting to heaven.  That means a million years from now, a Christian can rebel and get kicked out of heaven.  Talk about no security!  

Hi Butero,

The difference is that we have the very life of Jesus Christ within and thus a million, trillion years from now in eternity we will never sin for the life of the Son never sinned. We are in Him forever. Praise the Lord.

regards, Marilyn.