PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[simplejeff]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, simplejeff.

Why would you say that? Is this a bias simply from your theology? The Bible doesn't speak that way!

Someone tricked you.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hi Retrobyter    This is a question from You Previous post    "All Israel will be save"     Thanks for taking the time to do so.

It reminds of  Daniel chapter 12:2  which seems to use the same phraseology of  Ezekiel  37  "spiritual Resurrection of Israel after the Babylonian captivity"  Dead man's bones come to life in a Spiritual National Resurrection of the whole  house of  Israel. Do you see any correlation between those books since the Old Testament doesn't seem to mention specifically a biological resurrection. Although I do believe in a afterlife for those in God's favor through the New Testament.

In other words is Daniel 12 speaking of a biological or spiritual resurrection, and has similarities to John 5:28.29

Kind Regards

Larry

Shalom, Larry H.

Daniel 12:2 is LITERAL.

See, this is the problem with taking things too "spiritual" (actually "allegorical"). It allows people to "bow out" of the discussion when things get too stark.

It's also bad for the pretribulational rapturists to take a third (or more) of chapter 11 into the future for some nonsense about "the Antichrist": By not following the chain of historical events, it throws the timing of Daniel 12:1-2 off, and don't forget verse 3!

Of course, pushing everything in chapter 11 back to the Seleucid Empire and the Hasmonean dynasty is equally bad. This passage in Daniel 12 has NOTHING to do with the "Babylonian captivity." (Of course, neither does chapter 11, having begun with the kings of Persia!)

It was Jeremiah's prophecy that gave us the timing of 70 years for the Babylonian captivity. The prophecy revealed to Daniel by Gabriel has to do with the 490 years to follow, the Seventy Sevens ("Weeks").

Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV, Gabriel doing the speaking)

1 And at that time (Hebrew: uwVaa`eet - a phrase that refers to the coming of the Messiah, His FIRST Advent) shall Michael (whose name means "Who is like God?") stand up, the great prince (Hebrew: haSar haGaadowl) which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (Yeshua`s pronouncement of "desolation" upon the Jews which lead to the "time of Jacob's Trouble" in which we STILL live): and at that time (same phrase, uwVaa`eet, Messiah's SECOND Advent) thy people shall be delivered (saved; rescued), every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (THIS IS THE TRUE, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION!) 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

And, for the record, there's no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection!"

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Someone tricked you.

Well, if "Someone" did ANYTHING for me, it was God! Go back and read the passages for yourself!

[Larry H]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Larry H.

Daniel 12:2 is LITERAL.

See, this is the problem with taking things too "spiritual" (actually "allegorical"). It allows people to "bow out" of the discussion when things get too stark.

It's also bad for the pretribulational rapturists to take a third (or more) of chapter 11 into the future for some nonsense about "the Antichrist": By not following the chain of historical events, it throws the timing of Daniel 12:1-2 off, and don't forget verse 3!

Of course, pushing everything in chapter 11 back to the Seleucid Empire and the Hasmonean dynasty is equally bad. This passage in Daniel 12 has NOTHING to do with the "Babylonian captivity." (Of course, neither does chapter 11, having begun with the kings of Persia!)

It was Jeremiah's prophecy that gave us the timing of 70 years for the Babylonian captivity. The prophecy revealed to Daniel by Gabriel has to do with the 490 years to follow, the Seventy Sevens ("Weeks").

Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV, Gabriel doing the speaking)

1 And at that time (Hebrew: uwVaa`eet - a phrase that refers to the coming of the Messiah, His FIRST Advent) shall Michael (whose name means "Who is like God?") stand up, the great prince (Hebrew: haSar haGaadowl) which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (Yeshua`s pronouncement of "desolation" upon the Jews which lead to the "time of Jacob's Trouble" in which we STILL live): and at that time (same phrase, uwVaa`eet, Messiah's SECOND Advent) thy people shall be delivered (saved; rescued), every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (THIS IS THE TRUE, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION!) 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 

And, for the record, there's no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection!"

Hi again Retrobyter

I beg to differ, in my estimation a spiritual, allegory  resurrection is what God's views, not man unless it is revealed to him.

Corinthians 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.  

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Resurrection, Spiritual

Most Relevant Verses           I pulled this off the internet.

Ephesians 2:1

Verse Concepts

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Ezekiel 37:1-14

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry. He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."read more.

John 5:24

Verse Concepts

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:24-26

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Romans 6:3-5

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

1 Corinthians 15:17

Verse Concepts

and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Colossians 2:13

Verse Concepts

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Philippians 4:13

Verse Concepts

I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Verse Concepts

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Galatians 2:20

Verse Concepts

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Philippians 3:10

Verse Concepts

that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

Colossians 3:1-2

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

Colossians 3:3-4

For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 Peter 2:1-3

Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

John 3:3

Verse Concepts

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Romans 6:13

Verse Concepts

and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 John 3:14

Verse Concepts

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Romans 7:4

Verse Concepts

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Galatians 5:22-23

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

You thought

 

 

[Larry H]

On 2/22/2019 at 7:32 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

Pardon me for butting in, preterist say everything in the Bible has already been fulfilled, what was the mark of the beast?

Greeting Sorry for taking so long

I think to understand  what  the Mark of the beast represents, it should be contrasted to God's mark

Revelation 9:4: Those who do not have the seal of God in their forehead will be tormented. The Beast's mark is contrasted to God's mark!

God's mark on Christians

Revelation 7:3; 14:1; 22:4: Where will the name of God be written? It will be sealed in their foreheads!

Revelation 19:13: What exactly is the name of God that'll be written in their foreheads? It is The Word Of God! (See also John 1:1,14). In other words, Scripture, God's Word, will be in their hearts, minds, and souls!

Nero's the beast of  Revelation's has his mark on the Roman Empire, The forehead signifying control of the mind, the hand representing power.

Revelation 13:16-17: The Beast places a mark on the hand or forehead of his followers also. This mark is his name (which represents ones character).

Revelation 14:9-11; 16:2; 19:20: Those who receive the mark of the Beast (worship something other than God) will be tormented.

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, Larry H said:

Revelation 19:13: What exactly is the name of God that'll be written in their foreheads? It is The Word Of God! (See also John 1:1,14). In other words, Scripture, God's Word, will be in their hearts, minds, and souls!

HalleluYAH !   Meditate day and night on TORAH,  the WORD OF YAHWEH !   PSALMS 1, et al, NT, et al.....

5 minutes ago, Larry H said:

Nero's the beast of  Revelation's has his mark on the Roman Empire, The forehead signifying control of the mind, the hand representing power.

As written in Ephesians concerning the last 2000 years of men - controlled by the prince of the power of the air, the devil -

honoring and trusting he world/ flesh / man's government(s) instead of honoring and trusting and relying on YAHWEH !

[simplejeff]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, if "Someone" did ANYTHING for me, it was God! Go back and read the passages for yourself!

He sent His Son Jesus to die for you, yes.

His Word answers thee the questions you with twisted words asked.    "Go back and read, "  seeking the truth -

see if Yahweh will untwist what someone twisted - will straighten what was bent. 

I don't know who tricked you or why you believed them, but what they taught you is opposed to God's Word.

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, Larry H said:

I think to understand  what  the Mark of the beast represents, it should be contrasted to God's mark

 

Hi Larry, 

Rev. 13:17- And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Would you please provide some historical evidence as to when this prophecy was fulfilled? 

Also, I am looking for the date of the following, because I was under the impression Nero committed suicide in 68 A.D.:

Rev. 19:20- And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, simplejeff said:

He sent His Son Jesus to die for you, yes.

His Word answers thee the questions you with twisted words asked.    "Go back and read, "  seeking the truth -

see if Yahweh will untwist what someone twisted - will straighten what was bent. 

I don't know who tricked you or why you believed them, but what they taught you is opposed to God's Word.

Shalom, simplejeff.

Nonsense. Nothing twisted here. Yes, Yeshua` died for me and for you, as well as the rest of the world. HOWEVER, what does that have to do with what was being discussed?!

Tell me, please, what do you think "holy" means? What does "sanctify" mean? What is a "saint?" (Yes, all these words ARE related.)

I'll take it one more step so you can see where I'm going with this: How do you think the wife is "sanctified" by the husband or vice versa? How are the KIDS "sanctified" by the believing spouse?

And, how would this relate to the children of Israel, enemies with respect to the gospel, being "beloved" for the fathers' sakes?

Edited March 1, 2019 by Retrobyter
to add one more step

[Retrobyter]

On 2/28/2019 at 12:17 PM, Larry H said:

Hi again Retrobyter

I beg to differ, in my estimation a spiritual, allegory  resurrection is what God's views, not man unless it is revealed to him.

Corinthians 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.  

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Resurrection, Spiritual

Most Relevant Verses           I pulled this off the internet.

Ephesians 2:1

Verse Concepts

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Ezekiel 37:1-14

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry. He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."read more.

John 5:24

Verse Concepts

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:24-26

"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Romans 6:3-5

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

1 Corinthians 15:17

Verse Concepts

and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Colossians 2:13

Verse Concepts

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Philippians 4:13

Verse Concepts

I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Verse Concepts

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Galatians 2:20

Verse Concepts

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Philippians 3:10

Verse Concepts

that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

Colossians 3:1-2

Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

Colossians 3:3-4

For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 Peter 2:1-3

Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

John 3:3

Verse Concepts

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Romans 6:13

Verse Concepts

and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 John 3:14

Verse Concepts

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Romans 7:4

Verse Concepts

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Galatians 5:22-23

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Your thoughts?

 

Shalom, Larry H.

My first thought is shallow: Turn off your underlining, please.
My second thought is this: WOW! Look how many Scripture verses are misused! This is going to take a LONG time! (I'll try not to do it in one LONG post!)

Before we begin, I need you to do one thing for me, and this is NOT an easy thing to do: Please define for me, as well as you can, what you mean by "spiritual." This is no small task, I know, but it is necessary if we are going to be on the same page when it comes to the discussion and the interpretations of these passages.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Retrobyter