Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

44 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I have often thought that the marriage and supper must wait for the Old Testament saints to be resurrected - for they will be guests.  As I see it, the church will be resurrected a moment before the 6th seal wrath of God begins, and the Old Testament saints will be resurrected on the last day - at the 7th vial. Then the marriage can begin as shown in Rev. 19. I have not studied and have arrived at no conclusions about the Old Testament saints being included in the bride. 

Well it is possible they are part of the bride.  Given that the bride and groom were betrothed at the last supper before Yeshua’s death seemed to suggest otherwise.  But we will find out soon enough.  I have no problem with the OT saints being part of the bride.  

Where we may differ is timing. The bride has been betrothed to the Groom, but He still has to come and gather his bride to Himself.   

In the ancient Hebrew ritual, the groom calls to her from outside her home. She exits the home and they return to the marriage chamber he has prepared and they consumate the marriage for 7 days.   It would seem these days would align with the 7 days / 70th week of Daniel. 

After that period, the Groom and bride come out of the marriage chamber (See Joel 2) and the the wedding feast begins. Which I am convinced is when Yeshua returns, with His bride (now wife) to the earth as one flesh per Genesis 2.

The wedding guests are those of Israel and the.nations who survive the GT period.  Those of the nations being the sheep of Matthew 25 / Joel 3

Edited February 16, 2019 by OldCoot
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[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, OakWood said:

Why would anyone be afraid of Pre-Trib? It sounds too good to be true. A free pass from all the suffering.

No, in reality it's the Post-Trib that's the scary one, and Biblically it's also the correct one.

The false prophet enters the temple, then Christians are persecuted for 3 and a half-years and then at the end of all this Jesus comes to rescue us (the rapture), defeat the Devil and then set up the Millennial reign. This fits in perfectly with what the Bible says.

The pre-Trib has to add all sorts of stuff to scripture that simply isn't there. 'Jesus comes back, then he leaves, then he comes back again', all that sort of nonsense. If you simply read scripture word for word without adding your own pre-conceptions (and wishful thinking) to it, you'll find the truth.

Always read scripture without pre-conceived ideas. I read scripture without any bias, neither accepting nor rejecting either pre-Trib or Post-Trib doctrine. In fact the first time I started reading the Bible I was completely unaware of either rapture theory so I had no bias to overcome either way.

The pre-Retrib rapture is essentially popular doctrine in the U.S.A. but is almost unheard of among Christians outside of North America. It was never even considered by early Christians, nor by subsequent ones. It became popular because of teachers such as John Nelson Derby and Hal Lindsey who brainwashed thousands of Americans with the idea, so that from an early age these churchgoers were taught to believe in it. It is so comforting to them, that they can't let go of it, no matter how much they are shown the error of their ways. The truth sometimes is too painful to deal with.

Pre-Trib is simply un-Biblical and many times this has been explained on Worthy forums, yet the pre-Tribbers simply won't let go!

Instead, they don their Sherlock Holmes outfits, pull out their huge magnifying glasses, pick up their pocket calculators and go to work trying desperately to find the needle in the haystack that simply isn't there. Then when they've subtracted Daniel's 70th week from this, and added it to that, then divided it by something else, they yell "Eureka", here it is... I've found it."

But it's just an exercise in puzzle-solving and riddles - and has little to do with  understanding the simple truth of God's word. I don't doubt the intelligence or integrity of pre-Tribbers. Many are smart people who are clever at analysis, and have an admirable patience and dedication when it comes to trying to solve Biblical conundrums, but they are motivated by a false premise. They are motivated by a desire to justify something that they already believe in, rather than being motivated by the humility of understanding that they know nothing, but simply want to ask God questions that will give them knowledge.

But why try to complicate the simple truth of God's teachings? Why make His word more complicated than it already is?

It's possible to convince anybody  that they've found just about anything in scripture if they desperately want to, but only if they add 'this', assume 'that', and deceive themselves into believing God has said something that he never actually said.

For example: Homosexuals can convince themselves that God is okay with Gay marriage if they assume beforehand that he is (and want him to be so) just by twisting scripture, adding what they desire, and deleting what they don't like. The same goes for anybody who wishes to believe in something that their heart's desire. But in the end it's all about the truth. Jesus tells us to come to him as a small child. Small children know nothing, yet their curiosity leads them to ask questions. They don't have pre-assumptions. That's how we should be.

Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Trib, or even no Trib at all.... who knows? Who cares? Who is willing to accept whatever God tells them (even if it hurts at first and they don't like the answer that God gives them)?

At the end of the day, Post-Trib (and even possibly Mid-Trib) fits the Biblical narrative. Pre-Trib only works if you add your own bias to scripture and look for stuff that isn't actually there in the first place.

A free pass from all the suffering.  MYTH!

it's the Post-Trib that's the scary one, and Biblically it's also the correct one.  MYTH! As posttribbers like to say, "there is not one single verse that proves a post-trib rapture!  Post-tribbers can never get to the Marriage and Supper - for it will be held in heaven, before Jesus descends. Post-trib theory ROBS the sheep and goat judgement of the sheep.  Finally, when all the end times scriptures are taken together (as they should be) post trib seems the LEAST likely. 

The false prophet enters the temple, then Christians are persecuted for 3 and a half-years   MYTH! Rev. 12 tells us only a remnant of the church is left: that would be those left behind because they were not qualified.  Mostly it will be the Jews that are persecuted. After all, Daniel tells us the 70th week is for HIS people.  Then, John shows us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7, before he even begins the 70th week - so CLEARLY pretrib.  Paul teaches us that the rapture comes a moment before the wrath of God begins - so CLEARLY pretrib. Your theory fails.

This fits in perfectly with what the Bible says.  MYTH! It may fit with how YOU read the bible. It certainly does not fit what the bible really says. For example, the church already IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7.

The pre-Trib has to add all sorts of stuff to scripture that simply isn't there  MYTH!  The prewrath and posttrib must rearrange scripture to fit Pretrib fits scripture AS WRITTEN.  Paul's rapture (as written in 1 Thes. 5) fits perfectly between the 5th and 6th seals, and just before the 6th seal that begins God's wrath. Prewrath is probably the very WORST at rearranging Rev. to fit their theory.

'Jesus comes back, then he leaves, then he comes back again'  How amazing! You got this part RIGHT! Hallelujah! 

The second coming will be ONLY to the clouds.  " we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"  Post-tribbers  have to ADD to this that together they all descend to earth. That part is MYTH. Jesus went to build homes for us and will come and get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. It is the classical Jewish wedding. 

His third coming is shown in Rev. 19, where He descends to the battle of Armageddon.  So what you wrote is TRUTH, although you won't believe it.  Here is the ABSOLUTE truth:  "If you simply read scripture word for word without adding your own pre-conceptions (and wishful thinking) to it, you'll find the truth." In His 1 Thes. coming He comes ONLY to the air. In John 14, He takes us to the homes He has prepared.  In Rev. 19 He comes WITH the armies of heaven to fight. Clearly the bible teaches TWO MORE comings, for TWO DIFFERENT purposes.  

"Always read scripture without pre-conceived ideas."  Brilliant idea! One coming He comes to the clouds. ONLY those in Christ and caught up will see Him. In His Rev. 19 coming "every Eye will see Him." No preconceptions: just read the word AS WRITTEN. The marriage and supper will take place in heaven JUST AS WRITTEN and will be BEFORE Jesus descends to fight. No preconceptions: just taking the word AS WRITTEN - making a post-trib rapture impossible.  The days of great tribulation are CLEARLY written to begin AFTER the warning God gives not to take the mark. And as Rev. 15 shows us, the beheaded finally beginning to show up in heaven - making prewrath the silliest theory ever. They insist the days of GT are in the seals!

Read Rev. 4 & 5 with no preconceived ideas! John was looking at a vision of the past - looking back in time to a throne room WITHOUT Jesus, because He was still on earth. "No man was found" because John was seeing a time before Christ rose from the dead (in the vision).  Then John got to hear that Jesus was found worthy, and they saw Him sudden appear in the throne room, having just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. No preconceptions: just taking the scriptures for gospel truth AS WRITTEN. John is showing us all that the first seal is FIRST CENTURY.  You sure have some good ideas! 

is almost unheard of among Christians outside of North America.   TOTAL MYTH! I heard someone say this, so I started contacting believers in different nations in AFrica. I guess I must have contacted 40 or 50 church people there. I used Interpals web site.  MOST.... - ..I say again: MOST of them were pretrib! I asked them why and they said "it is scripture." You see, we in America don't have a corner on bible study! African's study their bibles too.

Then I spent 6 months in China, and for 5 of those months, taught in an underground church. Lo and behold: THEY TOO believe in a pretrib rapture. And they too study their bible!  Your theory is MYTH. 

The truth sometimes is too painful to deal with.  Postribbers and prewrathers find this true also!  The truth of the scriptures is AGAINST THEM!

Pre-Trib is simply un-Biblical  MYTH! Many times the truth of pretrib has been written on Worthy forums, yet the post-Tribbers and prewrathers simply won't let go! They are blinded by their own preconceived glasses they wear when the read the scriptures.  They explain away the great crowd too large to number, shown in heaven before John has even started the 70th week.  They INSIST Revelation must needs be rearranged. They refuse to believe John when He tells us where God's wrath begins. They INSIST that the cosmic signs in the sun and moon will only come ONCE: before the Day of the Lord and AFTER the days of GT. They ignore the differences in these signs as written at the 6th seal and in Matthew 24. They IGNORE the truth that Joel shows us these signs will appear TWICE more: first as a sign for the start of the DAY - as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal - where the moon will appear as blood red, then again as a sign of Christ's coming (Rev. 19) after the trib as shown in Matthew 24 and in Joel 3 - where both the sun and moon are darkened: invisible! (This sign speaks of total darkness). 

Pre trib is NO "needle in a haystack."  It is clearly shown for those that can read with no preconceptions. There IS a DIFFERENCE between the signs of the DAY and the sign of Jesus coming. Most people ignore these differences and imagine these signs are all speaking of ONE event, when in reality there are TWO events over 7 years apart. Just one verse, correctly understood proves pretrib: the great crowd in heaven, BEFORE John as started the 70th week!

they are motivated by a false premise  This certainly describes post-tribbers and prewrathers!

why try to complicate the simple truth of God's teachings?  My sentiments exactly!  One simple truth is, John saw the raptured church in heaven before the 70th week begins. (Just so the readers know, the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week with the 30 minutes of silence, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.)

The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN just as the word shows it.

The days of GT cannot and will not start until after the Midpoint of the week (the 7th trumpet) just as Jesus Himself said. The  beheaded saints will not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15, JUST AS WRITTEN - proving without any shadow of doubt that the last half of "the trib" will be AFTER chapter 11. 

John wrote Revelation from visions God Himself showed him. His chronology is GOD GIVEN. Yet so many are forced to rearrange John's God Given chronology just to fit a false theory. Worse yet, they have NO PROBLEM being forced to rearrange John's book! Why try to complicate it? Just take John at his word, and believe Revelation AS WRITTEN.

It is very clear the writer of this post is very biased AGAINST pretrib - which is sad, because pretrib is TRUTH.

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Well it is possible they are part of the bride.  Given that the bride and groom were betrothed at the last supper before Yeshua’s death seemed to suggest otherwise.  But we will find out soon enough.  I have no problem with the OT saints being part of the bride.  

Where we may differ is timing. The bride has been betrothed to the Groom, but He still has to come and gather his bride to Himself.   

In the ancient Hebrew ritual, the groom calls to her from outside her home. She exits the home and they return to the marriage chamber he has prepared and they consumate the marriage for 7 days.   It would seem these days would align with the 7 days / 70th week of Daniel. 

After that period, the Groom and bride come out of the marriage chamber (See Joel 2) and the the wedding feast begins. Which I am convinced is when Yeshua returns, with His bride (now wife) to the earth as one flesh per Genesis 2.

The wedding guests are those of Israel and the.nations who survive the GT period.  Those of the nations being the sheep of Matthew 25 / Joel 3

Perhaps we only disagree on where the 70th week begins in Revelation. I am convinced that the 70th week is marked by 7's. It begins at the 7th seal. The great crowd seen in heaven, Rev. 7, is the raptured church, raptured BEFORE the 70th week. This time relationship could not be clearer! Chapter 7 will certainly come in TIME before chapter 11.

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The kingdom of God is heavenly. The 1000 year reign is earthly.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yet, many people on these threads insist that Jesus' gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom.  At that time, the kingdom was within every believer. During the Millennium, it will be physically on earth. Therefore I  disagree. 

[OldCoot]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Perhaps we only disagree on where the 70th week begins in Revelation. I am convinced that the 70th week is marked by 7's. It begins at the 7th seal. The great crowd seen in heaven, Rev. 7, is the raptured church, raptured BEFORE the 70th week. This time relationship could not be clearer! Chapter 7 will certainly come in TIME before chapter 11.

You could be right. This is why we as the brethren should dialogue and share differing views so that we can draw closer to the truth. 

The only impediment to the Truth is if one thinks they already have it.  And in that case, all they have left is to attack those who disagree.

Heck, a good brother in Yeshua at my congregation thinks that we are already in the GT period.  We still have a good relationship.  We disagree on these sorts of things, but we both solidly agree about Yeshua and our redemption thru Him, and we would do anything possible to help one another out if needed.

Edited February 16, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

As a believer in the pre-trib position, I'm surprised that you use THIS verse which is about the "general gathering" that's supposed to be in "Heaven!" I learned this verse is about the "Rapture" day! That's the ONE time that we are all gathered together into ONE called-out assembly! I must have learned that over 50 years ago!

And, all the other 110 are talking about individual, LOCAL churches, NOT a UNIVERSAL (or Catholic) "Church!"

I got to thinking, maybe it's because you're not ... let me just ask you, ARE you an independent Baptist (or a Baptist at all), as I was? It's always been important to Baptists to be sure our children understood that we aren't part of the "Catholic (universal) Church," and never were. Therefore, Baptists are technically NOT "protestant" since Baptists never were part of the Catholic Church to protest against it and come out of it, as other denominations were.

This is not about any rapture positioning theory: it is because someone said there is no "church." I think this verse gives us a very good title for the Body of Christ on earth.  No, sorry, I have never been a baptist! How funny I should say that, because I am attending a Southern Baptist now. They ask me to speak once a month, and frequently in bible studies. I simple cannot believe Southern Baptist doctrine. They know this but STILL ask me to speak!  I was raised in the Wesleyan Methodist church - until I graduated from high school and moved away to college. No, that is not true either, because I start attending Marion College - which is now Indiana Wesleyan University.  

However, I was often troubled by John's Wesley's doctrine of "entire sanctification." AS the Wesleyan's taught it (and teach it) it is simply man's ideas and not scriptural at all. However, Wesley's theory of a second definite work of Grace IS scriptural, they just ignore the scriptures that teach it. The second work of grace came at pentecost.  While attending Indiana Wesleyan, I began dating a girl attending an Assembly of God church. I liked it so well I was Assembly of God for many years. Then I heard Word of Faith and I have been there ever since. 

Yes, I have read of the Baptist theory that they are not a part of ANY other church - never have been.  I don't their story!

Have you ever seen the denominational family tree? Look here:  http://www.truthforsaints.com/Christian_Denominations/denomination_history/denomination_history.html

It shows the Baptists as coming from the church of England which DID come from the Cahtholics.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It is sad that it is you who would condemn others to torment when they disagree with you and then try to say that it is me or any other condemning you for the disagreement.   

You are correct that it is the wrath of God that comes upon the (whole!) world when the 6th seal is opened.   But it is the tribulation of the  world that come upon you like a thief because the day of the Lord begins as wrath upon the Jews first.

Verse list:    
Rom 2:2-10 KJV    But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Blessings

The PuP 

Sorry, but I do not understand you here: could you try again with an expanded version?  What do you mean, "tribulation of the world?"

[iamlamad]

44 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

"...treasurest up..."

The response of man to the wrath of God (In particular,  the day of wrath against thee Jews) is (man's) wrath against others.   A cataclysmic chain of events will happen to the world when Israel attempts to defend her right to exist [by the expressing of her might and not relying on God] when God sends upon her the worst of the heathen [in judgment]:

[Read all of Eze 7],

*[[Eze 7:24]] KJV* Wherefore I will bring the worst of the heathen, and they shall possess their houses: I will also make the pomp of the strong to cease; and their holy places shall be defiled.

I have posted Jer 25:29-30 many times showing that God's judgment begins with Jerusalem and will affect many nations; 

*[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH, saith the LORD of hosts.

The same sentiment is expressed well in Zech 12:

Verse list:    
Zec 12:2-14 KJV    Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Israel will use everything she has got in defending herself,  and the world will respond in kind.   As Daniel 7 says,  "...he will break the whole world in pieces..."

Blessings

The PuP 

I have no doubt that Israel will be attacked. They will survive world war 3, but when God sends the nations of the world against her, she will crumble: their IDF will finally be destroyed. In fact, all hope of God's promises to Israel will seem to them gone forever, gone that is UNLESS at the last moment God FINALLY comes to their rescue. In fact, that is what will happen: Jesus will come just in time to save Israel from total destruction. One Third will come through the fire.

HOWEVER, God does not call the nations of the world to attack Israel until near the end of the 70th week. In spite of what you may think: the church will have been safe in heaven since the 6th seal time, 7 years previous. The 70th week is for ISRAEL, not the church. God has no need or desire to cause His church to suffer His wrath. No appointments will be made.

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

But the implication is there, because the dragon is waiting to devour the child as soon as it is born the verse preceding.  The idea of the child being caught up as it is born is there.

Revelation 12:4 ........And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

And being a collective is not faulty logic.  Are not the redeemed (plural) the Body of Messiah (singular)?   Does not the Redeemed (plural) in the Body (singular) refer to Yahweh as the Father?   

Well, I am not certain if the pre-trib camp invented this idea. It was espoused by many Bible expositors and scholars long before Darby showed up, that is, if Darby is the source of the pre-trib movement as many content.   I have found this idea in the writings of Theodore Beza (Bena Bible and Geneva Bible contributor) in the 1500's.  Darby didn't get his theological motor in gear till almost 3 centuries later.

It is a somewhat of a weird idea that the Body of Messiah has to go thru the tribulation period though.   Is not Yeshua the perfect Son of Yahweh?  And by extension, would not His body also be perfect?   After all, the only people that make up the Body of Messiah are those that have been justified and made righteous by the Blood of the Lamb.  What is it about the Body of the Son of God that needs to go thru that period?

It really is simple.  Israel is the wife of Yahweh as expounded on throughout the scripture.  She is the mother of Yeshua The Body of Yeshua (Church / Ekklesia) was conceived at Shavuot in Jerusalem (Israel) by the Holy Spirit who also overshadowed Mary who gave birth to Yeshua.   The Son is both Yeshua (the head) and His Body (the redeemed).  He is the perfect Son of Yahweh.    And the Body will reign with a rod fo iron just as Yeshua has been given that authority from the Father.  The Head and the Body are one.  Just like when the bride and the groom exit the marriage chamber (Chupah), they are one flesh.

It would seem that there is a focus problem going on.  Paul stated that there is a crown of righteousness for those that are looking for Yeshua's appearing.  But it seems that many supposed Christians are focused more on looking for the Antichrist.   That's ok.  All in the redeemed get the same bus ride out of here.  And all this debate will fall away behind us as we celebrate the redemption and deliverance of the Messiah face to face.

Hi OC,

"It is a somewhat of a weird idea that the Body of Messiah has to go thru the tribulation period though.   Is not Yeshua the perfect Son of Yahweh? "

Look at Jesus' prayer when He was in the Garden. Jn 15,16,17

"A slave is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you"

"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. But these things I have spoken to you, so that when the hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy."

"In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage, I have overcome the world."

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one"

From these scriptures, and there are more, it looks like we will not escape tribulation or persecution. And that's what the Great Tribulation is. Great doesn't mean more severe than what our brothers and sisters faced before. They were wrapped in animal skins and fed to the lions, they were dipped in wax and put on poles for torch lights for Nero's garden, they were sawed in two, they were crucified, tortured, babies thrown against walls,......how more severe can it get.

No, "GREAT" means megas.....more widespread. The Great Tribulation will encompass most of the world.

And I don't see us escaping. It will be the greatest hour for the church. It will be a time to let our light shine. It will be a time to share our testimony. The world will need the Church more than ever. 

"And you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them".....Mark 13:9

"When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say. but say whatever is given to you at that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit"...Marl 13:11

 

[OldCoot]

14 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi OC,

"It is a somewhat of a weird idea that the Body of Messiah has to go thru the tribulation period though.   Is not Yeshua the perfect Son of Yahweh? "

Look at Jesus' prayer when He was in the Garden. Jn 15,16,17

"A slave is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you"

"These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. But these things I have spoken to you, so that when the hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy."

"In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage, I have overcome the world."

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one"

From these scriptures, and there are more, it looks like we will not escape tribulation or persecution. And that's what the Great Tribulation is. Great doesn't mean more severe than what our brothers and sisters faced before. They were wrapped in animal skins and fed to the lions, they were dipped in wax and put on poles for torch lights for Nero's garden, they were sawed in two, they were crucified, tortured, babies thrown against walls,......how more severe can it get.

No, "GREAT" means megas.....more widespread. The Great Tribulation will encompass most of the world.

And I don't see us escaping. It will be the greatest hour for the church. It will be a time to let our light shine. It will be a time to share our testimony. The world will need the Church more than ever. 

"And you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them".....Mark 13:9

"When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say. but say whatever is given to you at that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit"...Marl 13:11

 

You are making the common mistake.  Confusing tribulations in general with the specific end time tribulation period.  And I would like to know how many governors and kings those in the final tribulation period will be standing in front of as a testimony.  Seems that the general fate they receive is beheading.   I believe that reference was more in line with the events surrounding events in Paul's life.  True enough, one will not have to worry about what to say.  Kind of hard to talk with you head severed from your body.  

Edited February 16, 2019 by OldCoot