Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[OldCoot]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Direct quote from Corrie Ten Boom:

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days.  Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

Notice carefully her words: "There will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this." NO pretribber that I know of has ever said Christians can or will escape all "tribulation." The bible makes no such promises. What we will escape is just what Paul tells us we will escape: God's wrath on earth. We see the start of God's wrath at the 6th seal, then throughout the trumpet judgments, and then in the vials of His wrath - that is through the entire 70th week. What Corrie Ten Boom went through was NOT God being angry with her! It was the DEVIL being angry at her. Jesus as much as told her and all other believers that the world hated Him and would hate us. 

It is the same with those believers put to death or persecuted in China: that was the devil's anger against believers. It is almost guaranteed to happen. I will say it again: Corrie Ten Boom was not scriptural in her remarks.

Actually, what we are promised to escape is the Day of the Lord.  And the scripture also states that it is the the Day of Christ.  It doesn't separate things.  And Yeshua is the one opening the seals.  Absolutely nothing of that period will happen that the Lord did not direct or allow it.  The entire thing is at the hand of Yeshua.  He stated quite clearly in Matthew 28 that all authority had been given to Him by the Father over heaven and earth.  That should settle the matter, but I am sure it won't for those who love to play word games.

One can attempt to delineate things and talk about going thru part but not the "wrath" and whatever little condition one wants to put on it, but the entire thing..... from seal one on thru to setting up the Kingdom on Earth... is under the authority of Yeshua.  The entire thing is the Day of the Lord Yeshua.  And we who are of Yeshua are promised that we will be gathered and kept from the Day of the Lord on earth in numerous places of scripture, including the OT.

Paul tied our being not appointed to wrath with the Day of the Lord in 1 Corinthians 5.  And told us to "comfort one another with these words".  And Paul reminded the Thessalonians "the day of Christ" would not come until the departure occurs first via the one who retrains being taken out of the way, and then the man of sin / antichrist would be revealed.  it really is just that simple.  The departure of the redeemed up to that point has to happen before that period can even begin.    The similarity is shown in the the Angels could not destroy Sodom until Lot and his family had been taken out.   The Flood could not come till Noah and his family were sealed by the Lord in the ark.  Prophecy is pattern as well as prediction. 

There will be those who come to faith in Yeshua when they see the removal of the righteous.  Even the 144,000 are saints.  So there will be those who become saints during that time and they will endure that period and many will die.  But they went into the period as unbelievers.  That there are saints in that period is not proof text that the church is part of that period.  Just like OT saints were not part of the church, neither are these tribulation period saints.   All are redeemed thru Yeshua, no doubt.  But there is a distinction.  There are different groups of angels, there are different groups of the redeemed.  That doesn't negate  in any way their redemption or their worth.   It is senseless to turn things into a class warfare game like the world does.  All are redeemed, but not all are the same, and as the Bema seat judgement (2 Corinthians 5) will show.... not all have the same level of rewards.  Leave the Socialism stuff to idiots outside the Body.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Actually, what we are promised to escape is the Day of the Lord.  And the scripture also states that it is the the Day of Christ.  It doesn't separate things.  And Yeshua is the one opening the seals.  Absolutely nothing of that period will happen that the Lord did not direct or allow it.  The entire thing is at the hand of Yeshua.  He stated quite clearly in Matthew 28 that all authority had been given to Him by the Father over heaven and earth.  That should settle the matter, but I am sure it won't for those who love to play word games.

One can attempt to delineate things and talk about going thru part but not the "wrath" and whatever little condition one wants to put on it, but the entire thing..... from seal one on thru to setting up the Kingdom on Earth... is under the authority of Yeshua.  The entire thing is the Day of the Lord Yeshua.  And we who are of Yeshua are promised that we will be gathered and kept from the Day of the Lord on earth in numerous places of scripture, including the OT.

Paul tied our being not appointed to wrath with the Day of the Lord in 1 Corinthians 5.  And told us to "comfort one another with these words".  And Paul reminded the Thessalonians "the day of Christ" would not come until the departure occurs first via the one who retrains being taken out of the way, and then the man of sin / antichrist would be revealed.  it really is just that simple.  The departure of the redeemed up to that point has to happen before that period can even begin.    The similarity is shown in the the Angels could not destroy Sodom until Lot and his family had been taken out.   The Flood could not come till Noah and his family were sealed by the Lord in the ark.  Prophecy is pattern as well as prediction. 

There will be those who come to faith in Yeshua when they see the removal of the righteous.  Even the 144,000 are saints.  So there will be those who become saints during that time and they will endure that period and many will die.  But they went into the period as unbelievers.  That there are saints in that period is not proof text that the church is part of that period.  Just like OT saints were not part of the church, neither are these tribulation period saints.   All are redeemed thru Yeshua, no doubt.  But there is a distinction.  There are different groups of angels, there are different groups of the redeemed.  That doesn't negate  in any way their redemption or their worth.   It is senseless to turn things into a class warfare game like the world does.  All are redeemed, but not all are the same, and as the Bema seat judgement (2 Corinthians 5) will show.... not all have the same level of rewards.  Leave the Socialism stuff to idiots outside the Body.

 

Old Coot, you are not being scriptural in one point! John is very clear as to where the DAY begins - and that is at the 6th seal.  Why fight against what is clearly written? There is simply NO WAY that the martyrs of the church are being martyred because of God's wrath! There is no way the first seal - the gospel going forth - is going forth in God's wrath. No, John makes it clear, wrath does not begin until the 6th seal - or as some wish to think, the 7th. But from then on, all is God's wrath: EVERY trumpet judgment is sounding in wrath. They are judgments. The seals (1 through 5) are not judgment. They are just church history. Of course the martyrs are from Satan's wrath. He hated Jesus so He hates all believers.

Yes, it is a GREAT comfort to know we will not suffer under God's wrath. I would like to see a posttribber "comfort" another posttribber by telling them they must go through God's wrath, and be overcome! 

You write a good post! 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

If one conflates 'wrath' with the 70th week then you would be correct. This is an example of the doctrine twisting the truth.

The wrath of God is a short time period that occurs after great tribulation, which is a time period of a duration of less than 3.5 years in the 2nd half of of the 70th week. 

As Jesus said;

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’as described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."

It's very clear great tribulation does not begin till after the A of D, and only after this does Jesus return;

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b

30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

This is the one and only gathering in the whole of scripture and it occurs after great tribulation. And it's the same gathering of which Paul spoke in 1 and 2 Thess. The comfort to which you refer is being saved from wrath and hence, eternal death, not saved from the last 7 years of downfall of the government of man.

There is no sense in continuing since you have no idea Scripturally where God's wrath begins. 

We disagree on TOO much. Good luck with your theories. I hope they work out for you!

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

9 For thou hast judged me worthy to shew me the last times. 2 Esdras 12:9

Verse list:    
Dan 8:17 KJV    So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Dan 8:19 KJV    And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Dan 8:23 KJV    And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Dan 8:25 KJV    And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

You can believe what you want,  but I am here to tell you that Daniel 8 is an expansion of what was written in Daniel 7.  This vision is not just a vision that Daniel had,  it's a vision where Daniel is a participant.   

*[[Dan 8:2]] KJV* And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I WAS AT  SHUSHAN in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I WAS BY THE RIVER  of Ulai.

DANIEL WAS NO WHERE TO BE FOUND IN THE DAYS OF ANTIOCHUS IV.

Blessings

The PuP 

 

You are ignoring the key verse:  "And in the latter time of their kingdom..."

Ignore this and you miss Daniel's entire meaning.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Don't worry about God's Wrath as in the 70th week.

Be more concerned about bearing false witness against a known and proven and righteous woman --

i.e. your ideas were told to you by someone bearing false witness not only about Corrie, but also about Yahweh's Word...

.  (oh,  I think I posted that already. Here it is again - someone bore false witness and you accepted it.).

You are mistaken, not understanding the end times scriptures. So was Corrie.

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Old Coot, you are not being scriptural in one point! John is very clear as to where the DAY begins - and that is at the 6th seal.  Why fight against what is clearly written? There is simply NO WAY that the martyrs of the church are being martyred because of God's wrath! There is no way the first seal - the gospel going forth - is going forth in God's wrath. No, John makes it clear, wrath does not begin until the 6th seal - or as some wish to think, the 7th. But from then on, all is God's wrath: EVERY trumpet judgment is sounding in wrath. They are judgments. The seals (1 through 5) are not judgment. They are just church history. Of course the martyrs are from Satan's wrath. He hated Jesus so He hates all believers.

Yes, it is a GREAT comfort to know we will not suffer under God's wrath. I would like to see a posttribber "comfort" another posttribber by telling them they must go through God's wrath, and be overcome! 

You write a good post! 

I still would disagree that the 6th seal is the start of that day. All that is going on is those of the earth are finally acknowledging what has already been going on.  There is not enough in that passage to make a doctrine that there is a delineation of wrath vs non-wrath period of time.

And since Yeshua clearly told us that all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him, the entire period is the Day of the Lord from seal one onward. That is emphasized in Revelation 4 when the Lamb was the only one found worthy to open the scroll.  That scroll is not a history book, each of those seals come about via the action of the Lamb, Yeshua.

In Revelation 4 the Lamb comes forward.  His day has arrived. All that transpires afterward is by His authority.

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On 2/17/2019 at 7:08 PM, Littlelambseativy said:

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

⁹ After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, ¹⁰ and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” ¹¹ All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, ¹² saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

¹³ Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

¹⁴ And I said to him, ^[b]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. ¹⁶ They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; ¹⁷ for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to ^[c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Rev 7......

 

The word for tribulation is used 45 times in the NT. Sometimes it is translated as affliction, trouble, burden or anguish. The point to see is that the entire Church Age is comprised of tribulation. 

The Matt 24:15 (and the parallel verse Mark 13:14) verse is the ONLY mention of the AoD in the New Testament and comes right BEFORE the "great tribulation" verse MT 24:21. Jesus was asked (in vs 24:3) right before he began this speech, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" 'These things' is about the destruction of the temple (24:2). By moving the AoD verse to the future, you would be ignoring that specific question (right before Jesus began talking) which targets the 70ad event. ALL of the NT was written BEFORE 70ad EXCEPT Revelation. And guess how many times Rev. mentions the AoD? Answer = 0 (nada, zilch). Why would such an important event be missing from Revelation? The NT epistles mention the AoD because it was relevant for THEM. 

Verses 16-22 in Matthew then refer to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem (and the temple). Notice how they are directed toward Jews. Would Christians worry about running away on Saturday? NO, but first generation Christians (much of whom were Jewish) would still practice observance of Sabbaths. 

Matt 24:23 

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Now (from 90ad onward), there are false Christs, & false prophets. Notice the phrase 'from the East', this refers to the "Westward" movement of the Holy Spirit starting with the 1st century. Where/How does Jesus return? = The EAST gate. 

Where do eagles/vultures gather?  =  Dead carcasses, the end of the final tribulation at the 2nd coming.

What then? 

 

^"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Now you may say, "AHA, got you now you pre-tribber"?

Well, looking closely, we see that with this 'coming', Jesus is "SEEN" and is using angels to gather his elect. The 'elect' in this case refer to Jews and probably new 'converts' that came in AFTER the rapture. Yes, this refers to the END of the final tribulation/2nd coming. This concludes the answers to the specific questions, but Jesus thinks to add more information that was NOT asked...

Rapture gatherings are described as Jesus being the one doing the gathering (not the angels). See Rev. 14... The 144K are marked and at that time there is a "new song" being sung in heaven by those raptured (I think this may be only the dead saints 'in' the earth {first trumpet} - including the 5th seals martyrs). Only the 144K on earth "understand" it. Rev 14:13 then says "blessed are those who die in the Lord henceforth". The left-behind believers and the rest of the world still have a chance in the final tribulation. The next verse is Jesus removing the true believers from the earth (2nd trumpet)(those living 'on' the earth). The "son of Man" is the one doing the reaping here. Verse 17 then refers to those who are rejected by God and cast into the final tribulation (3rd trumpet)(great winepress). 

Rev. 15 is attached to the martyrs of the final tribulation period (who are in heaven for rejecting the Mark and being killed for it) and these are also associated with a "new" song, but the song is labeled "the song of Moses" and, so, for the Jews. 

The parables that follow take us BACK to the start of this final tribulation with a flurry of rapture metaphors.

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I still would disagree that the 6th seal is the start of that day. All that is going on is those of the earth are finally acknowledging what has already been going on.  There is not enough in that passage to make a doctrine that there is a delineation of wrath vs non-wrath period of time.

And since Yeshua clearly told us that all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him, the entire period is the Day of the Lord from seal one onward. That is emphasized in Revelation 4 when the Lamb was the only one found worthy to open the scroll.  That scroll is not a history book, each of those seals come about via the action of the Lamb, Yeshua.

In Revelation 4 the Lamb comes forward.  His day has arrived. All that transpires afterward is by His authority.

What comes just before the 6th seal? Of course, the 5th seal. They are martyrs of the church age.  Stop and think: if they were 70th week martyrs, they would know they had only to wait out the rest of the 7 years.  They are asking when Judgment will come. If they were 70th week martyrs they would know the judgment of God had already begun. Take Stephen for example: He had no idea how long the church age would last so God could begin judgment. That is why they asked. 

You are not understanding the intent of God in chapter's 4 & 5.  First, they show TIMING. They show the movement of TIME. Example: a time when Jesus was NOT found worthy, and time passed to a time when Jesus WAS found worthy  But what IS the TIME? When was Jesus found worthy? When He rose from the dead.  This vision John saw (Most people just think he saw the throne room) of the throne room, was a throne room of the past (John's past!). Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the father because He was still on earth: had not yet risen from the dead and had not yet ascended.  the Holy Spirit was still there in chapter 4, in the throne room, because Jesus had (in the vision) not yet ascended and sent Him down. "No man was found" in chapter 4 because the TIMING in chapter 4 is before Jesus rose from the dead.  We have three proofs of this.

In chapter 5 we see a change: suddenly Jesus WAS found. The only change: TIME had passed: first a time before He rose ....to a time AFTER He rose.  Then, in the vision, John saw the moment Jesus ascended and entered the throne room. What was the very first thing that happened?  The Holy Spirit was sent down. So we see TIMING and the movement of TIME. The time? Around 32 AD: the very time Jesus gave the great commission: GO and make disciples....the first seal. 

You and I both know, the devil fought very heard when the gospel left Jerusalem. He could not stop Paul, even by stoning him - but he sure tried. He murdered Stephen, one of the first  - if not the first - martyrs of the church. Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel - to hold it within the 1/4 of the earth God had allowed him to operate.

As you see, NONE of this is God's wrath. God was not angry with the church! He was helping the church. It was the devil who was angry and trying to stop the church.  There had to be a seal for the martyrs, for as soon as the church went out, martyrs were killed. 

Rev. 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

It is truth: Judgment will not come in any big way until the age of Grace is over. They are crying for judgment, but they must wait for the church age to end. God knows the full number of church age martyrs and when that number is complete, THEN and only then can the 6th seal be opened to begin the Wrath of God. 

Don't take just John's word for it - that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal!  Go back and read about THE DAY in the Old Testament: God's plan is to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Read Isaiah 2. It is about the start of God's wrath and reads almost word for word with the scriptures at the 6th seal!  then, when the trumpet judgments come, we can see God beginning the destruction of the earth. They are God's wrath.  If we back up, seal five CANNOT be His wrath: God is not killing His own!  Neither will God use war, pestilence, and famines: God is not a murderer! The devil was a murderer from the beginning. War, famine and pestilence are the devil's arsonal, but his purpose in the seals is to stop the gospel.  

 

 

¹² And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake, [foretold in Isaiah 2] and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ and they said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb! [foretold in Isaiah 2 about the Day of the Lord]

¹⁷ For the great Day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?”

[bracketed comments by me]

Apparently those people had read Isaiah 2 and Joel 2, [signs in the sun and moon] and KNEW the signs of the DAY.  I don't know how ANYONE can read this and not believe it as written: It is the start of the DAY. The rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal, and trigger it. The great earthquake will be Paul's Sudden Destruction.  Then, just AFTER this time in John's narrative, he saw the raptured church in heaven. It all fits.

[iamlamad]

13 minutes ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The word for tribulation is used 45 times in the NT. Sometimes it is translated as affliction, trouble, burden or anguish. The point to see is that the entire Church Age is comprised of tribulation. 

The Matt 24:15 (and the parallel verse Mark 13:14) verse is the ONLY mention of the AoD in the New Testament and comes right BEFORE the "great tribulation" verse MT 24:21. Jesus was asked (in vs 24:3) right before he began this speech, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" 'These things' is about the destruction of the temple (24:2). By moving the AoD verse to the future, you would be ignoring that specific question (right before Jesus began talking) which targets the 70ad event. ALL of the NT was written BEFORE 70ad EXCEPT Revelation. And guess how many times Rev. mentions the AoD? Answer = 0 (nada, zilch). Why would such an important event be missing from Revelation? The NT epistles mention the AoD because it was relevant for THEM. 

Verses 16-22 in Matthew then refer to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem (and the temple). Notice how they are directed toward Jews. Would Christians worry about running away on Saturday? NO, but first generation Christians (much of whom were Jewish) would still practice observance of Sabbaths. 

Matt 24:23 

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Now (from 90ad onward), there are false Christs, & false prophets. Notice the phrase 'from the East', this refers to the "Westward" movement of the Holy Spirit starting with the 1st century. Where/How does Jesus return? = The EAST gate. 

Where do eagles/vultures gather?  =  Dead carcasses, the end of the final tribulation at the 2nd coming.

What then? 

 

^"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Now you may say, "AHA, got you now you pre-tribber"?

Well, looking closely, we see that with this 'coming', Jesus is "SEEN" and is using angels to gather his elect. The 'elect' in this case refer to Jews and probably new 'converts' that came in AFTER the rapture. Yes, this refers to the END of the final tribulation/2nd coming. This concludes the answers to the specific questions, but Jesus thinks to add more information that was NOT asked...

Rapture gatherings are described as Jesus being the one doing the gathering (not the angels). See Rev. 14... The 144K are marked and at that time there is a "new song" being sung in heaven by those raptured (I think this may be only the dead saints 'in' the earth {first trumpet} - including the 5th seals martyrs). Only the 144K on earth "understand" it. Rev 14:13 then says "blessed are those who die in the Lord henceforth". The left-behind believers and the rest of the world still have a chance in the final tribulation. The next verse is Jesus removing the true believers from the earth (2nd trumpet)(those living 'on' the earth). The "son of Man" is the one doing the reaping here. Verse 17 then refers to those who are rejected by God and cast into the final tribulation (3rd trumpet)(great winepress). 

Rev. 15 is attached to the martyrs of the final tribulation period (who are in heaven for rejecting the Mark and being killed for it) and these are also associated with a "new" song, but the song is labeled "the song of Moses" and, so, for the Jews. 

The parables that follow take us BACK to the start of this final tribulation with a flurry of rapture metaphors.

The point to see is that the entire Church Age is comprised of tribulation.   I think you nailed it!

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" 'These things' is about the destruction of the temple (24:2)   Again, I agree. They asked three questions.  Jesus ignored their first question. 

By moving the AoD verse to the future, you would be ignoring that specific question (right before Jesus began talking) which targets the 70ad event.   Jesus is the one who ignored  that first question. He could have said, "Your generation will see it," or "It will be within 40 years" or something like that. But Jesus said nothing like that. He ignored "when shall these things be?"
 

Jesus started answering with this:

 

4  ...“Take heed that no man deceive you;

⁵ for many shall come in My name, saying, ‘I am Christ,’ and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Notice the bolded text: Jesus is not talking about the end yet! This is church age stuff. So He ignored their first question.

Here He begins talking about the end:

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.

¹⁵ “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand),

It is very interesting; Jesus jumps from church age to the middle of the week! He skips over the first half of the week. (This may be why some imagine there is only a half week left.) The point is, Jesus does not answer their first question.

Luke's version:

 

²⁰ “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

²¹ Then let them that are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let them that are in the midst of it depart out, and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Verse 20 does give us a hint of a SIGN of the destruction of the temple, but no timing. He still did not answer the WHEN question. 

Why would such an important event be missing from Revelation?  Simple: Revelation was NOT ABOUT that; it is a revelation of Jesus Christ. John did cover the church age in the first 5 seals, but no seal was about the destruction of Jerusalem or the temple. It should be evident, it was not in God's purpose to include it. He gave enough warning in Luke so the Christians escaped. 

Verses 16-22 in Matthew then refer to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem (and the temple)  Sorry, but what happened in 70 AD simply does not fit these verses accurately enough for most people to even imagine what you suggest.  Did titus enter the holy of Holies and set up an image? If he did, it is not recorded. But it is ALREADY recorded that the man of sin will - and will declare he is God of the Jews.  I don't think anything Titus did measures up to the scripture. That is why untold millions of believers are looking to our future for these events.

[OldCoot]

AI am sure you know that time is a dimension and it is relative to mass among other things.  Tell me, how much mass does a soul have?  None!  There is no way for these martyred saints to measure time. They are not going to be able to take their iPhone or Rolex with them.

when one studies the dynamics of time, one can come to the realization that by being outside the dimension of time, Enoch, Moses, Paul, and these martyrs might actually arrive to that area at the same time.  Not saying they do, but we must avoid putting the constraints of our physical existence onto the spiritual one.

remember, the scripture says we will see Him as He is because we will be as He is.  And that is far beyond the dimensions of space and time that we experience now.

Edited February 20, 2019 by OldCoot