Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, Spock said:

Have you considered the Hosea 6:2 prophecy?

That would be I guess, after the 2000 years of the church. 

[simplejeff]

Hosea 6, from an Hebraic Version downloaded a few years ago:

.......more than burnt offerings. (Ps 40:6, Ps 51:16-17, Jer 7:22-23, 1Sam 15:22- 23, Math 9:13)

7 But, like Adam, they have transgressed the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

8 Gilead is a city of those who work iniquity, slippery with blood marks.

9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, the company of priests murder in the way to Shechem; for they have done wickedness.

10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel: the fornication of Ephraim is there; Israel is defiled.

11 Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed to you, when I return the captivity of My people fn3.

Chapter 7 >

1 When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was uncovered, and the wickedness of Samaria fn4. For they have worked falsehood; and a thief comes; a troop of robbers plunders outside.

2 And they do not say within their hearts that I remember all their evil. Now their own doings have hemmed them in. They are before My face.

3 They make the king glad with their evil, and the rulers with their lies.

4 They are all adulterers, like an oven heated by the baker; he ceases from stirring, from kneading the dough until it is leavened.

5 In the day of our king, the rulers have sickened themselves with the

3. fn3  Since 1948 and the making of the modern state of Israel, Judah has went through many sufferings and hardships, but in this day there will be a great harvest for both Judah and Ephraim Jer 31:1.

4. fn4  Samaria was the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel.

 

 

 

787

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5:15 I will go; I will return to My place until they confess their guilt and seek My face. In their affliction they will seek Me diligently.

Chapter 6
1 Come and let us return to YAHWEH. For He has torn, and He will heal us. He has struck us, and He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will bring us to life. In the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live before Him fn1.
3 Then we shall know, we who follow on to know (Aleph/Tav) YAHWEH. His going forth is established as the dawn. And He shall come to us as the rain, as the latter and former rain to the earth.
4 O Ephraim, what shall I do to you? O Judah, what shall I do to you? For your goodness is like a morning cloud, and it goes away like the early dew.
5SoIhavehewnthembythe prophets; I have slain them by the Words of My mouth; and your judgments have been as the light that goes forth.
6 For I desired mercy fn2, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim
 

 

---------------------------
fn1 This scripture foreshadows the resurrection
of Yahshua, which was the third day and also the millennial kingdom as a day is as a 1,000 yrs to YHWH (2Pe 3:8) and 6 days (6,000 yrs) have been given to man to rule and then, the 7th day (1,000 yr millennium) will come.
fn2 The Hebrew word “Chesed” means loyalty and faithfulness, two extremely important requirements in a covenant relationship.

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, the church has been growing for many years: when one "falls away" two come

no.

[JoeCanada]

On 2/23/2019 at 5:39 AM, iamlamad said:

Of course I do! I would not believe this otherwise. It is the CONTEXT of the first seal, which is the entire two chapters, 4 & 5. When we study these two chapters, it points to the timing of 32 or 33 AD. Notice these points:

In chapter 4, Jesus was not in the throne room, not at the right hand of the father - but we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen. This shows us timing. In all of time, past to future, there has only been 32 years that the second person of the Godhead was NOT at the right hand of the first person of the God head. After He rose from the dead, He ascended right back to where He had been. 

We see a search was made for one worthy to open the seals, but that first search John got to watch ended in failure. Again this shows us timing. He had to rise from the dead before He could be found worthy.

We see the Holy Spirit there in the throne room in chapter 4 (as the 7 spirits of God) but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. Again it shows us timing: Jesus had not yet ascended. 

When we get into chapter 5, time has passed and things changed: suddenly Jesus WAS found worthy. And then John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.  In these two chapters we see TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time. The timing points to the very moment Jesus ascended and got the book into His own hands.  

Both of these chapters show us the timing of the first seal was when Jesus ascended: 32 AD. 

I considered the color white: John used white 17 times in Revelation - ever OTHER time to represent righteousness. In my mind it would be silly to even think God would use "white" at the first seal to mean anything else. 

I considered the word overcoming or conquering. It fits the church fulfilling the commandment to GO. Satan is the god of this world, and he would fight tooth and nail (so to speak) to prevent the gospel going ANYWHERE. 

So, you're saying that in Rev 5:3-4, that a search party was sent out to scour the heavens, the earth, and under the earth (is this flat earth, maybe He was hiding under there......or the grave)....and that Jesus was nowhere to be found. In another post, you said that the angels were looking for thousands of years for someone worthy. I find all this "incredible"

Either Jesus is really good at playing "hide and seek"....or the angels are really bad at finding someone.

The question then, is this.....Where exactly WAS Jesus during all this search? If He wasn't in heaven or on the earth or under the earth....then where was He?

 

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

So, you're saying that in Rev 5:3-4, that a search party was sent out to scour the heavens, the earth, and under the earth (is this flat earth, maybe He was hiding under there......or the grave)....and that Jesus was nowhere to be found. In another post, you said that the angels were looking for thousands of years for someone worthy. I find all this "incredible"

Either Jesus is really good at playing "hide and seek"....or the angels are really bad at finding someone.

The question then, is this.....Where exactly WAS Jesus during all this search? If He wasn't in heaven or on the earth or under the earth....then where was He?

Sorry, but John DID NOT SAY they were looking for Jesus!  How do you come up with this stuff! Go back and read: they were looking for A "MAN." If we read ahead, we see it was "A MAN" that rose from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind.  At the time of this first search John watched, NO MAN was found. Why? Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. 

Did you just not notice that after that one search ended in failure, another search was started? It HAD to have started, for in the next search, JESUS was found worthy.  This is a strong hint that such a search had been ongoing. I only guess it had been ongoing for a long time. 

Wake up! Jesus was in hell! But the part of hell we call "paradise." Yes, they looked there, but they were looking for a man that was the redeemer. He was not at that time, because He had to rise from the dead FIRST.  I guess in a way He was hiding - in His grave! 

The answer is, He was probably UNDER the earth, but still not qualified, for to become qualified, He would have to escape death and rise from the dead. In short, He was NOT qualified until after He rose from the dead. 

Remember, they are NOT looking for a man named Jesus! They were looking for the Redeemer of mankind.

Edited March 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, simplejeff said:

no.

Have you never looked at church statistics?  Maybe you should. It started with 120 people. Today there are untold millions of believers. 

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but John DID NOT SAY they were looking for Jesus!  How do you come up with this stuff! Go back and read: they were looking for A "MAN." If we read ahead, we see it was "A MAN" that rose from the dead to become the redeemer of mankind.  At the time of this first search John watched, NO MAN was found. Why? Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. 

Did you just not notice that after that one search ended in failure, another search was started? It HAD to have started, for in the next search, JESUS was found worthy.  This is a strong hint that such a search had been ongoing. I only guess it had been ongoing for a long time. 

Wake up! Jesus was in hell! But the part of hell we call "paradise." Yes, they looked there, but they were looking for a man that was the redeemer. He was not at that time, because He had to rise from the dead FIRST.  I guess in a way He was hiding - in His grave! 

The answer is, He was probably UNDER the earth, but still not qualified, for to become qualified, He would have to escape death and rise from the dead. In short, He was NOT qualified until after He rose from the dead. 

Remember, they are NOT looking for a man named Jesus! They were looking for the Redeemer of mankind.

The NASB, the one I use,.....and the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament does NOT say they were looking for a "man". Both say that "no one" was found, not that "no man " was found.

It's all in the context of the passage. 

"I began to weep greatly, because no one was found worthy to open the book". You stop at "found"......you're not looking at the context. The context is........ "found worthy"!

Look at some examples from Scripture.

Eze 28:15

“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Dan 1:19

The king talked with them, and out of them all not one was found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they [fn]entered the king's personal service.

Dan 6:22

“My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths and they have not harmed me, inasmuch as [fn]I was found innocent before Him; and also [fn]toward you, O king, I have committed no crime.”

Mat 1:18

Now the birth of Jesus [fn]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [fn]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Luk 9:36

And when the voice [fn]had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

 Rev 14:5

And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Rev 18:24

“And in her was found the blood of prophets and of [fn]saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

Were all of these instances where the word found is used.......... "lost"?......... Of course not!

But people will USE whatever means necessary to further their agenda.

Very illogical......and very deceitful

This is not a careful, objective analysis. Otherwise, I would have commended you on a good exegesis.

This is someone who injects his own ideas into the text, making it say whatever he wants.......eisegesis.

Not good brother, not good!

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The NASB, the one I use,.....and the Interlinear Greek-English New Testament does NOT say they were looking for a "man". Both say that "no one" was found, not that "no man " was found.

It's all in the context of the passage. 

"I began to weep greatly, because no one was found worthy to open the book". You stop at "found"......you're not looking at the context. The context is........ "found worthy"!

Look at some examples from Scripture.

Eze 28:15

“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Dan 1:19

The king talked with them, and out of them all not one was found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they [fn]entered the king's personal service.

Dan 6:22

“My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths and they have not harmed me, inasmuch as [fn]I was found innocent before Him; and also [fn]toward you, O king, I have committed no crime.”

Mat 1:18

Now the birth of Jesus [fn]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [fn]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Luk 9:36

And when the voice [fn]had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

 Rev 14:5

And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Rev 18:24

“And in her was found the blood of prophets and of [fn]saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

Were all of these instances where the word found is used.......... "lost"?......... Of course not!

But people will USE whatever means necessary to further their agenda.

Very illogical......and very deceitful

This is not a careful, objective analysis. Otherwise, I would have commended you on a good exegesis.

This is someone who injects his own ideas into the text, making it say whatever he wants.......eisegesis.

Not good brother, not good!

The majority text also has "one." Please answer this question: could anyone but "a man" become the redeemer of man?  But let's look and see:

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This verse tells us who they were looking for: He was worthy FOR He was slain and became the redeemer of man kind.

I ask you: could GOD be the redeemer? No, He had to become a man. Only a man could redeem man. 

Now I will ask you simply why you would accuse me of being deceitful. Do you honestly think I was on purpose trying to deceive anyone? Further, do you think I have an agenda?  Please keep these kinds of comments out of the threads. There is no place for them in a Christian forum.  One could imagine YOU had an agenda. 

OF COURSE they were looking for one WORTHY. OF COURSE No one was "lost." I have never even hinted such a silly thing. Someone else did though. We are adults here. All should be able to read and know that the search was for one worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

Now, please be kind enough to show where I injected my own idea into this.  If you would read closely, I wrote this:  "He was NOT qualified until after He rose from the dead. "  Does that hint at being lost? No, "qualified" means He fulfilled what was probably written on the outside of the book. If you look back further, I wrote this:  "We see a search was made for one worthy to open the seals."  I ask again: why do you accuse me of being deceitful? 

Edited March 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[JoeCanada]

On 3/2/2019 at 8:50 PM, iamlamad said:

The majority text also has "one." Please answer this question: could anyone but "a man" become the redeemer of man?  But let's look and see:

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This verse tells us who they were looking for: He was worthy FOR He was slain and became the redeemer of man kind.

I ask you: could GOD be the redeemer? No, He had to become a man. Only a man could redeem man. 

Now I will ask you simply why you would accuse me of being deceitful. Do you honestly think I was on purpose trying to deceive anyone? Further, do you think I have an agenda?  Please keep these kinds of comments out of the threads. There is no place for them in a Christian forum. One could imagine YOU had an agenda.  

OF COURSE they were looking for one WORTHY. OF COURSE No one was "lost." I have never even hinted such a silly thing. Someone else did though. We are adults here. All should be able to read and know that the search was for one worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

Now, please be kind enough to show where I injected my own idea into this.  If you would read closely, I wrote this:  "He was NOT qualified until after He rose from the dead. "  Does that hint at being lost? No, "qualified" means He fulfilled what was probably written on the outside of the book. If you look back further, I wrote this:  "We see a search was made for one worthy to open the seals."  I ask again: why do you accuse me of being deceitful? 

Iamlamad,

"could anyone but "a man" become the redeemer of man"

Well, according to Kenneth Copeland, he says that he himself could have hung on that cross and been the redeemer.

A "man" could never have become the redeemer of men. Only the Son of Man could fulfill that role, only the begotten one of God could fulfill that roll. Only God, in the form of man, could fulfill that role.

"why you would accuse me of being deceitful."

It's your teachings that I accuse of being deceitful.

"One could imagine YOU had an agenda". 

You're right. I do have an agenda........ To expose error

OF COURSE No one was "lost." I have never even hinted such a silly thing

You keep saying that a search was made, and that Jesus was not there, not in heaven, nor on the earth, nor under the earth. This is implying that Jesus was "lost. No one "searches" for something that is there, they only search for something that is "lost."

You also said that a search was made from the time of Adam, and that there were many searches:"perhaps this search for one worthy to take this book and loose the seals had been ongoing since the days of Adam, another search starting the moment the previous one ends in failure."

So the question remains:

If Jesus was not in the throne room, and not on the earth, and not under the earth (in the grave)......

THEN WHERE WAS HE?

Can you answer this.....showing scripture?

 

 

 

[simplejeff]

2 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Jesus was not found worthy because it was not in God's time to execute his judgments. 

I hope you mean and can confirm that Jesus was always (eternally) worthy,  He is always "perfect"/ in holiness, in everything/  with no spot nor wrinkle nor hindrance ever,.......,

and

perfectly waited until the Father directed Him .....